Jump to content
whodares

Current state of the game - Ressers too strong? - Rant

Recommended Posts

Ever since Wave 5 has come out, I have yet to actually find a weakness with the current Resser faction. My current rant is about 3 specific models released in Wave 5 which should have never been released in their current form. I will not talk about specific masters as that would only make it longer to type on why Ressers are currently by far the strongest they have ever been and why no other faction can even come close to the dominance of Ressers.

 

  1. Kentauroi

Summonable models with a 13" threat range with ml6 3/4/6 damage track and built-in Poison+1 damage making it an effective min 4 damage model. To top it off, they can charge out of engagements and ferry models AND drop corpse markers after charging. This card alone is pretty much 3 models stuffed in a single card and then made summonable. I'm not sure what could be wrong with that ...

  1. Asura Rotten

Yo dawg, I heard you like activation advantage so we gave you a free summon. The summon sucks, so we are allowing it to use your attack so it can still hit hard and should not be ignored. Oh yeah and your markers also force TN14!!!! wp duels in a 3" area or they take damage. Ofcourse you don't want this model to go in melee, so we're giving it a 10" range non-randomizing terrain-ignoring shot that can stack a condition that lowers df, wk and cg. It also has a built-in trigger to stack even more fore every one of your markers closeby. Wanna make sure your heavy hitter won't cover any resistance.

  1. Lampad

Lampad has gone mostly under the radar due to the OPness of the previous 2 models, but the best way to describe this would be High River Monk on crack actually dealing damage AND having a built-in summoning mechanic. Ml6 with 1/2/3 is not impressive, but he has a built-in burning AND a built-in trigger for more burning (every :tome grants +1 burning extra). Just hitting the opponent ONCE grants you 1 damage and 2 burning. Charging an enemy would grant you 2 damage and 4 burning guaranteed with a possible (0) action giving another burning. Then you can save up a tome and deal more burning. If the opponent ends an activation within 3", he gets another burning. Stacking burning is so easy on these guys, HRM wishes they could die to become these guys. As if the damage wasn't enough, they summon a friend just like them if an enemy model dies within 10" of them due to burning. Not thgat hard considering they can easily stack 5! burning on a single model. I'm rather amazed I haven't seen this guy on more lists. It might be because they have just been released and a lot of players don't like proxying.

 

 

 

The pattern these 3 models have is that they have support and high damage all on a single card while making summoning trivial to do. Asura gives you a free model every turn, Kentauroi gives you the corpse markers and Lampad just duplicates because of his damage. Asura's damage isn't the greatest, but she can make Mindless Zombies into a very real threatwith Ml6 so they actually start doing damage.

 

We're not even talking about masters, yet these models alone can outsummon entire factions without sacrificing anything in return. Asura has been on every single Ressers list so far and that's because she just brings too much advantage to the table. Outactivating your opponent is one of the strongest things you can have in thise game and Asura does this on her own for a (0). Kentauroi get summoned and just wreck whatever you're bringing which is what 3/4/6 with Poison +1 tends to do. Lampads are currently ignored because Asura is already a must-take and you can bring more master-specific models to the table. Even then Lampads are still a viable choice for activating late in a turn, stacking the burning and getting another free Lampad off of it. And you WILL get that off because nothing can even come close anymore in activations.

  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taking the results of the faction at big (40+ participants) events in Poland and UK this year, I would say it's exactly the opposite - the faction is horribly bad.

Troubleshooters 3, 13th Jan, 40 participants, the worst avarage score.

Polish Nationals, 17th March, 46 players, Ressurs at 5th place.

Haul of Eggs 6, 24 March, 44 participants, the worst avarage score.

Adding the results from smaller events doesn't change the picture much.

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No point of talking.... Different players, different results...

U should more pay attention on :

- Player skill
- Player experience
- Opposing player skill

- Opposing player experience

- Player model pool

- Opposing player model pool

- Player luck

- Opposing player luck

 

Those factors change everything.

For example Necodem/Sandeep/Collodi are dominant on the battlefield so why they are not 1st in every single tournament ? Once u find out what your opponent does and u know how to play against, it's not so hard to get prepared to incoming things and there most often wont be any surprises... Prepared warrior = good warrior.

 

Imho but Resseres are OK. It's all based on who the player is. Models u mentioned are strong but it all depends...

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am with the TO here. Resser are terrible to face since wave 5. In my local meta they've won every single game except those where the opponent fielded another faction (like OP Gremlins or OP Arcanists. And don't get me started on Guild - irgh!).

Player Skill doesn't seems to matter anymore anywhere. It's just one faction winning against another every Game (except sometimes when the same Faction is played on both sites, but since wave5 Resser win even those Games):(

  • Like 1
  • Haha 5
  • Respectfully Disagree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Tors said:

I am with the TO here. Resser are terrible to face since wave 5. In my local meta they've won every single game except those where the opponent fielded another faction (like OP Gremlins or OP Arcanists. And don't get me started on Guild - irgh!).

Player Skill doesn't seems to matter anymore anywhere. It's just one faction winning against another every Game (except sometimes when the same Faction is played on both sites, but since wave5 Resser win even those Games):(

Not really sure what you're trying to say here. Ressers dominates everything except Gremlins, Guild and Arcanists? Sounds like they're middle of the pack, or perfectly average. What is the problem here?

Might be me misunderstanding, but Ressers winning all Ressers vs. Ressers games since wave 5 doesn't seem to add much information; I'm prettt sure Ressers have won every Resser vs. Resser game since M1; just like Arcanists have won every single Arcanist vs. Arcanist game, and the same for every other faction in mirror matches...

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Tors said:

I am with the TO here. Resser are terrible to face since wave 5. In my local meta they've won every single game except those where the opponent fielded another faction (like OP Gremlins or OP Arcanists. And don't get me started on Guild - irgh!).

Player Skill doesn't seems to matter anymore anywhere. It's just one faction winning against another every Game (except sometimes when the same Faction is played on both sites, but since wave5 Resser win even those Games):(

I'm playing Guild and have tie match every single time i face Factions u mentioned... Secret is when it's very close skill level one who mistakes first looses game. Try to figure out what u doing wrong...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tors said:

I am with the TO here. Resser are terrible to face since wave 5. In my local meta they've won every single game except those where the opponent fielded another faction (like OP Gremlins or OP Arcanists. And don't get me started on Guild - irgh!).

Player Skill doesn't seems to matter anymore anywhere. It's just one faction winning against another every Game (except sometimes when the same Faction is played on both sites, but since wave5 Resser win even those Games):(

The irony is strong with this one

  • Like 3
  • Haha 2
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi! as a Gremlin and Resser player, I would like to share my not-so-worthy oppinion. I find the new Wave 5 models and Upgrades generally strong, not just the Resser ones, but mostly every faction got a model or two (maybe an upgrade) that has shaken the perception of the faction. Time will tell if the models are actually TOO strong or if it is a matter of time before we can learn how to deal with them.

On the Resser side, I agree that the three models you defined are very good, but I am not shure if they are actually TOO good (possible, still).

The kentauroi seem to be very strong mobility and hard hitting models, being able to switch from a taxy to an impaling spear in one turn. The fact that they can be summoned also opens up many options. I think they gave the faction something uncommon, so it seems like an awesome blessing, that may or may not be forgotten as it becomes "just another trick of the faction" but right now it seems to be a nice new trick. Do not forget that most summoners will bring the model very damaged to the table, and, knowing they suffer damage if they want to charge, they end up the action with one leg on the grave. Yes, they can grab a corpse for 0, but they also need the 0 to charge out of engagement, so they heal and remain stuck or die charging again. Also, the amazing damage track this model brings only works on charges, forcing you not to stay on melee with your target if you want to kill it. Even as the damage track is quite good (not awesome for its cost I think compared to the rest of the faction), they are damaged for every time they charge, becoming very tasty targets for the enemy that can kill them with a not so great min damage. Finally, do not forget they have a 50mm base, making the positioning a bit more complex compared to other models. They may be strong, but can be shut down by a good player.

Asura rotten, on the other hand, seems to be a model that came to fulfill one role and take the place of Mortimer on any Nicodem crew. Her summons do not require resources but her own pillars, so she can get a mindless zombie wherever she wants to. Do not forget that her pillars are mutually exclusive with her zombies, se discards one to create the other, so the trick is not THAT MUCH abusive (strong, but not TERRIBLE). I think she can play a strong game with the carrion emissary and any master that enjoys corpses and/or undead, such as nico and reva. Her debuff seems too good to be spammed by mindless zombies IMO, but I hope a good player can snipe her or ruin her LoS. I still did not use her (hate zombie spams) but I consider her one of the most powerful models in the book. She does something the rest of the faction already does (summon and support), but she does it better.

I think the Lampad is an awesome model in the wrong faction. If we had seen him on Arcanists or Guild, we would have cryed and agreed about it being the most powerful release ever, but unfortunately for itself, it is a fire bender in the middle of the poison/horror/undead faction. I has very strong powers, maybe it can be sent as an anti scheme runner, multiplying itself, but it does not recieve any help from the rest of the faction. For its cost, counting the fire damage, we could say he is a good hitter with good mobility, but the faction already has shikomes, students and Goryos to fulfill similar roles, and they tend to get more tricks inside the faction. The possibility of summoning a brother is awesome, but it needs to make it alone, and the lack of hard to wound, incorporeal or any other defensive tech may lower the expectations of many players. I personally am very interested on trying it once I get my hands on a couple of them, but I fear that the powerful Ressers combos may incite me to bring just Rafkin or a shikome again.

 

Anyways, the models ARE strong, maybe some a bit too much, but I hope time will tell if it is just our perception or not.  I remember the moment Reva came to light, it was said she was the best resser master ever, absolutely the strongest on the whole game, and now we are seeing that the discussion is about Sandeep, Collodi and Nicodem!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I liked the beta version of Asura Rotten better. If I remember correctly  her summon required like a 6:crow but didn’t remove her quarantine makers. Grasping hands had a shorter range but allowed range (but not LoS) to be drawn from any quarantine marker. The markers were a bigger deal and her summons weren’t a sure thing.

It doesn’t seem like Kentauroi are a problem when hired. I don’t know if they’d even be a problem if it was more difficult to summon them. The card draw, corspe marker engine, and soulstone generation that something like a Nico crew can bring makes tossing out three models that are some combo of Punk Zombies and Kentauroi every turn trivial. 

Lampads are awesome. I haven’t encountered them yet and don’t know if they are too good, if people just don’t know how to deal with them yet, or if they get a little broken when they are in a crew that usually ends up with a 3-5 model activation advantage. I wish Kaeris’s summoning upgrade worked this way, even if it just summoned Fire Gamin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just gonna pop in here and mentioned CCM, where in the top 10 there was at least 1 of every faction(double up on ressers and 10T), and in the top 3 it was 10T, arc, 10T(all playing a different master each round).

Game still seems in a pretty good state to me. Ressers don't auto win games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Just gonna pop in here and mentioned CCM, where in the top 10 there was at least 1 of every faction(double up on ressers and 10T), and in the top 3 it was 10T, arc, 10T(all playing a different master each round).

Game still seems in a pretty good state to me. Ressers don't auto win games.

It's the internet, where hyperbole is the currency of the realm.

I've seen way too many "Faction/Master X is unbeatable!", that frankly, my eyes start to glaze over when I see another one. As @Rillan points out, there are many factors that influence a game. I think people are under the impression that the game should be 50/50, and not take into account that it might not be that Faction X is the most powerful so Player Y plays it, but Player Y is the better player, and happens to play Faction X.

That as many people have mentioned, larger tournament results indicate no such dominance by any Faction to an appreciable degree*, indicates to me that it's simply not a problem of Faction power, but of the local metagame. People tend to work against themselves, and want to see any imbalance of win potential as not their fault, as the simplest solution. Rather than it being another issue.
* I consider dominance with 7 factions to be one faction placing ~50% of the top 25% of places, on average, across multiple timezones. Anything not even close, essentially proves otherwise. I heard of a CCG tournament recently, where something like 57 of 60 players played essentially the same deck. That's dominance that needs addressing. 

And for me, the one I see being the most common factor is lack of experience, not with the game, but with the relative crews, and adaption thereof. If your opponent knows how his crew works, AND knows how yours work, and is willing to adapt his tactics to using his strengths and exploiting your weaknesses, he has an advantage if you don't know how his crew works, and if you try to run your crew as you always have because it was successful in the past. 

I have no problem with people seeking help on how to beat a certain Faction/Master/Combo (which requires people to accept they might not know everything), but the declarative statements that something as significant as a Faction especially, is too strong, is very very tiring. Because there's been at least three of these in recent months, and they can't all be right.

  • Like 7
  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Faction isn’t the problem, individual masters are.

For example I wouldn’t have an issue ultimately with Kentauroi not being summonable, though i don’t have an issue with Molly summoning them. The problem with them being summonable is Nicodem, and as I said at the time making Nicodem’s summoning as open as it was was a glaring mistake, and here we are. His keyword should have been more restrictive than “Undead”.

My problem with these threads is they always seem to focus on the perceived OP models but they NEVER try to define where the line is that the powerful models are over. In order to define over powered I feel you have to define just plain powered. So if Specifoc masters are OP what specifoc masters are the defining definition of where the line should be?

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Just gonna pop in here and mentioned CCM, where in the top 10 there was at least 1 of every faction(double up on ressers and 10T), and in the top 3 it was 10T, arc, 10T(all playing a different master each round).

Game still seems in a pretty good state to me. Ressers don't auto win games.

You have to say though that there was an Iron Scorpius award that "forced" you to play 5 different masters in 5 different games, and all but 1 or 2 of the top 10 participated in that.

Think that made it overall closer because Nico or Deep (for example) are just there for one match.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tris said:

You have to say though that there was an Iron Scorpius award that "forced" you to play 5 different masters in 5 different games, and all but 1 or 2 of the top 10 participated in that.

Think that made it overall closer because Nico or Deep (for example) are just there for one match.

almost like any perceived issues are more about certain masters than factions as a whole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tris said:

You have to say though that there was an Iron Scorpius award that "forced" you to play 5 different masters in 5 different games, and all but 1 or 2 of the top 10 participated in that.

Think that made it overall closer because Nico or Deep (for example) are just there for one match.

There was a solo sandeep who came in 5th, but the OP didn't say it was a problem with only certain masters in ressers but the exact opposite, it just those 3 models that make the faction OP.

 

Also I'm  sort of replying to another thread where the OP is seriously downplaying 10T.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

There was a solo sandeep who came in 5th, but the OP didn't say it was a problem with only certain masters in ressers but the exact opposite, it just those 3 models that make the faction OP.

 

Also I'm  sort of replying to another thread where the OP is seriously downplaying 10T.

To give a bit feedback on this: I'm not saying only these 3 models are making Ressers OP. I'm saying these models in their current form are OP and are pushing the faction way over the line. I also mention not wanting to write up about certain masters as those problems are already known. Nicodem was already considered to be one of the strongest masters in the game and he just got 2 models that help him even more. I don't see how that helps faction balance?

 

Asura Rotten is probably the most annoying release for Wave 5 as she gives you free activation control, damage and support all in a single package. She doesn't even cost 10 stones...

Kentauroi are semi-riders with great mobility and damage. They enter the game with enough wounds to use their Charge AND drop a corpse marker. Please tsart the engine even faster?

 

To the 10 Thunders: I've mained them for 1.5 years and another year I've been swapping between Thunders, Neverborn and Arcanists. Thunders are by far the weakest of the bunch there and have never gone above middle-of-the-pack. They finaly gained power in Misaki, but that was quickly taken away. It was a counter against Nicodem after all, can't have that in the game.

Please don't pretend like Thunders can have nice things. We had Yasunori and Terracotta Warrior and they have both been increased in stone cost. yasunori is the only rider standing at that cost and that's only because Thunders has easier access to pushes. What people forget though is that those things also cost stones and AP.

I don't understand the nerfs Thunders have gotten when there was far more game-breaking stuff left untouched and most of that stuff comes from Ressers.

That's the last I'll say about Thunders here, this thread is about the Ressers and how Wave 5 broke them even further. Giving a slow-starting faction a normal start while taking away none of the strenghts has made them a bit too strong.

 

A small anecdote from what I've gathered from local ressers players: they don't like playing the top masters as it's too boring. Nicodem has his turns pretty much planned out with little-to-none difference in how he operates and Kirai functions as a Nicodem-lite. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, whodares said:

Thunders are by far the weakest of the bunch there and have never gone above middle-of-the-pack. They finaly gained power in Misaki, but that was quickly taken away. It was a counter against Nicodem after all, can't have that in the game.

Please don't pretend like Thunders can have nice things. We had Yasunori and Terracotta Warrior and they have both been increased in stone cost. yasunori is the only rider standing at that cost and that's only because Thunders has easier access to pushes. What people forget though is that those things also cost stones and AP.

I don’t see how reigning in the range of the blast off of The Storm upgrade and removing the bit about ignoring damaging reduction is any sort of protection from Wyrd directed at Nicodem. Misaki is still placing blast markers 8 inches away and she’s able to cheat when she has negative damage flips. Most of Nicodem’s friends are Hard to Wound, don’t have damage reduction, and tend to want to run in a bit of a bubble.

People like to call Yasunori the Ten Thunder’s Rider but that’s not really a good comparision. Yasunori is as powerful a model round 1 as he is in round 5. The Riders don’t start approaching where they need to be to justify their cost until late in the game. In most situations having a powerful model in turn 1 and 2 is worth much more than having a powerful model turns 4 and 5.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, whodares said:

Kirai functions as a Nicodem-lite. 

Kirai just got her feelings hurt :(

I think she actually plays quite a bit differently than nico. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, whodares said:

Asura Rotten is probably the most annoying release for Wave 5 as she gives you free activation control, damage and support all in a single package. She doesn't even cost 10 stones...

She hardly give free activation control, she generates 1 mindless zombie a turn.   She doesn't directly do damage at all.   She is an amazing support piece.  It buffs all weak rezzer models so that their cheap activations can always do something meaningful (debuff enemy models, or do a decent attack to things close to them).   I could see an argument for making some of her abilities part of an upgrade instead of all coming stock, but how many times has wyrd missed that in the other direction?

 

2 hours ago, whodares said:

Kentauroi are semi-riders with great mobility and damage. They enter the game with enough wounds to use their Charge AND drop a corpse marker. Please tsart the engine even faster?

There is no comparison to riders.  They fill a completely different role.   That is to say, they are incredibly good, but I am not sure you are complaining about the important part.

 

Lampads are solid models that require planning and work to make them worth their cost. (however, kentauri certainly help with this).

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/5/2018 at 8:52 PM, whodares said:
  1. Kentauroi

 This card alone is pretty much 3 models stuffed in a single card and then made summonable.

 

  1. Lampad

Charging an enemy would grant you 2 damage and 4 burning guaranteed with a possible (0) action giving another burning. 

 

I see your point of view. Though I think by putting things in extremes it kinda thrumps your arguments.

It's not because you can do multiple things that you're 3 models. Kentauroi are very strong and the problem is that nico can summon them and they can charge the same turn, kill themselves and provide 2 corpses, or alternatively provide nico with crazy mobility. That in my opinion is a bit over the top as a summoners weakness should be a slow start and limited mobility as he's using his ap to summon. The window to attack nico has just become a lot smaller, though not impossible by any means. I think that if they would have been enforcers, or not been able to summon it would be fine. Cause if he hires one, that at least replaces another model.

About the lampad, I think they're absolutely not op. I thought they were strong from the start. It is a typical high risk high reward model. When you get the summon that's a huge swing in your favor, if you don't, it's an easy 7 or 8ss to remove from the board. 

Also, how is a charge with ml6 guaranteed to hit twice. It is by definition not guaranteed, as you need to flip cards ;):).

In conclusion I feel the balance in malifaux is pretty good, especially compared to some other games where some op list dominates. Yes, nico is extremely strong at the moment, but the same could be said about sandeep or hamelin. 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i honestly don't think there is something to nerf in malifaux at this moment, at most some buff for some specifically masters,

Nobody talking about GG2018.

Resurrectionist, are benefited by of most gg2018..that's probably why are perceived so strong..

@whodares i fully agree with you about tt, in every official tournament ranking, i never seen one tt on podium (except maybe mei-feng last year in usa) correct me if i'm wrong..

 

by the way people.. 1 more mindless zombie a turn for me is always 1 more activation..😆 you can't say that asura don't help in this way.. same speech for emissary.. are two free activation for turn..😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

by the way people.. 1 more mindless zombie a turn for me is always 1 more activation..😆 you can't say that asura don't help in this way.. same speech for emissary.. are two free activation for turn..😉

That's actually what I did to @whodares last weekend. 2 mindless zombies a turn is nice, especially when they hit hard. I bring them for the summoning, but with asura roten your zombies become powerfull offensive tools. And the emissary is still a very solid model without the zombie summoning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

by the way people.. 1 more mindless zombie a turn for me is always 1 more activation..😆 you can't say that asura don't help in this way.. same speech for emissary.. are two free activation for turn..😉

I was about to say it myself. You take two almost auto-include models (Asura and Emissary) and as a package you are basically given extra 2 models a turn. Very nifty deal i must say.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Joachim said:

That's actually what I did to @whodares last weekend. 2 mindless zombies a turn is nice, especially when they hit hard. I bring them for the summoning, but with asura roten your zombies become powerfull offensive tools. And the emissary is still a very solid model without the zombie summoning.

Yeah, two zombies a turn is nice, and helps towards activation control. But it's hardly the same as autimatic out activation as was claimed earlier. I feel hyperbole kills a lot of these discussions, and just adds noise instead of being helpful.

Seriously, it seems there is a new thread every week about something new that is either auto-win (always the only thing of that power level in the game!), or something that is completely useless. The gremlin being auto-loss thread ironically was just before Gremlins won UK Masters, probably the toughest tournament in the world by an order of magnitude.

Again, I'm not disagreeing Nico and Sandeep are strong, and Ophelia is probably weak enough that she could use a buff. But it's not nearly as dramatic as these threads will have you belive...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, tmod said:

Yeah, two zombies a turn is nice, and helps towards activation control. But it's hardly the same as autimatic out activation as was claimed earlier. I feel hyperbole kills a lot of these discussions, and just adds noise instead of being helpful.

How so? If you get two extra models a turn and you easily out-activating most of the other crews (as long a they are not led by summoners). Seems like automatic process to me😁

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×