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Is Malifaux too complex?


Math Mathonwy

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I really like the basic rules of Malifaux. The deck is naturally fantastic but the whole Interacting and Scheme Markers thing is IMO brilliant. There's a bit of rules clutter (putting out models on fire and other such small rules) and some difficult parts (the timing thing is very complex) but for the most part I think that all the complexity in the basic rules is there for a reason and adds to things. Oh, and elevation rules are simply really bad but that's not game breaking as such.

But there's a lot of profiles in Malifaux. I wonder if we've broken 1000? And then all the Upgrades as well.

Last weekend I faced a crew with sixteen Upgrades. That's a lot of cards to read through and internalize.

And that is the complexity I want to discuss in this thread.

I've seen a rising trend in playing solo Master or even wholly fixed lists in tournaments. Usually the reasoning is, that a tournament is a taxing environment and learning something well and piloting that is better than building the optimal list but it having a bunch of stuff that you aren't intimately familiar with.

Also, when facing a new Master or even a new build archetype for a Master, the game tends to be really, really difficult compared to facing that Master or archetype for the third time. Even some non-Master models are potent enough to warp the game and a person seeing them for the first time is at a distinct disadvantage.

This is anecdotal, but I've heard quite a few people say something to the effect that fourth book was the watershed moment and the time they started to really struggle and fifth book has just been too much. No idea how common this point of view is in the grand scheme of things but, as said, anecdotally I've heard it quite a few times.

Do other games suffer of this? I've understood that WM/H is pretty impenetrable for newbies currently but I don't play it myself. GW stuff is definitely very bloated but the game is less combo-intensive? Guild Ball is doubling their number of factions which sounds somewhat crazy.

Can Wyrd do anything? Should they do anything? Could 3rd edition somehow solve this? How?

Or am I being chicken little and things are totally fine? Is there even a line where a profile bloat might become a problem?

Sorry to be all doom and gloom. I'll try to start a positive thread about something to balance out a bit.

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While I was translating some part of the game, I found that some triggers, actions or ability are most of the time 1-off, but sometimes, they are more-off, like critical strike, obey and Hard to Wound.
I find most of those redondant abilities are pretty understandable and ease the game a lot. Malifaux want their models to be original with most of the time new abilities but i think some models could be very specific while having only 1-2 new ability/action/triggers.
I really like "leap" for exemple, the TN is a flat 10:ToS-Mask:,  but every model has it more or less hard. There is a lot of mechanical difference between Gupp (Ca 9/Tn 10:ToS-Mask:) and blessed of december (Ca 2:ToS-Mask:/TN 10:ToS-Mask:).

Sometimes, you have some troublesome differences.

For example different abilities with different names :
"An after succeeding" VS "After damaging" difference
"The target gets the Poison +1 Condition" VS "Models damaged by this attack get the poison +1 Conditon"
I would rather use the same trigger (Infect) all the time.
I understand there are slight intended differences but we have to read every word of everything several times during every single games to not be mystaken.

Also, some abilities/actions/triggers, are the very same, but got some different names which can be confusing

Edit :
I also love the complexity of Malifaux, but i think some stuff could be a bit more standardized.

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I don't have problems with the complexity, but I've had a least one friend who dropped the game because it felt too complex for them.   I don't expect that a third edition would change much of that.  Tbh I rarely review a models entire card .  I ask my opponent if there is anything I need to worry about and we play.  If something doesn't sound right, I'll review the card or pull it up on my app to check it out.

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Don't know. I think complexity is very situational. In our meta it's considered as easy game while English for us is only 3rd language. But I think it all depends. Most of us used to play with rules in English. And when someone has questions we help as we can. I if we have a tie in discussing we have Malifaux forum/faq and great Henchman that helps a lot. 

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Malifaux is complex, but that's part of the appeal to me. Two people could play the exact same list 5 times in a row and have 5 very different games. Then take into account the sheer amount of variation you can come up with in terms of models, there is a whole lot there to explore. By comparison, I get kind of bored with 40k, because all the lists start feeling stale and predictable after a bit. At least in my meta. That said I still really enjoy it, but 40k is more a once a month thing for me, where Malifaux is at least once or twice a week

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I'm a fan of the complexity, weird combowombos is what sold me on the game. That being said I'm one of your anecdotes because I know we've discussed that several of us pretty much gave up on keeping up with everything around book 4. 

I personally feel that there needs to be balance between complexity and number of models for players to have a reasonable chance to keep up. I'm especially annoyed by trigger wordings that confuse resolution. If there were a few mutual trigger points and triggers resolved when their point came up it would make a lot more sense. Many "after succeeding" triggers from book 1 take for granted that you resolve them at the resolution step and not after the action has taken effect so it just confuses things. Would have been easier to have a few fixed points like after resolving/failing/succeeding being at the actual check duel total step and simultaneous and after damaging/suffering damage coming after damaging but as a specific step in the damage resolution process. You could also have "when" for the same points which would also have a clearly marked step in the action resolution flow.

I solved my troubles by lowering expectations on myself to kerp up and just taking it on the chin when something completely unknown slaps me in the face during a game.

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I also saw players drop around book 4, cited reason was there was just too much to keep up on. I can say in Arcanists there are currently 145 different models I can put on the table. This includes all versions of infiltration I have access to (26 models), all mercs I cannot hire in another fashion (41 models), all summon only models (4 models). That does feel a bit high, at least to me personally.

Other than that I'm ok with the variety of the cards in the game, and the complexity of the abilities on said cards. But for a skirmish game there sure are a lot of things I have to own/know about in order to be a "Master" of my own Faction. A solution to me would be to remove the mercs being able to hire out of Faction cause that would cut my options down by ~1/3 and put me in a more comfortable place in terms of variety of what I have to own (after I get done raging about these other models I bought and had painted but can no longer be used. And rage I would, but I would get over it and believe the game would be in a better place afterwards)

Edit: had a mistake in the infiltration count. correctly changed to 26

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I've been away for a while and I'll admit the amount of new stuff (and changed old stuff) is a bit off-putting. I went through the exact same thing with infinity 3rd ed and am pretty resigned to never getting back into that game.

The core rules of Malifaux have felt a bit clunky to me at times. For example flipping a tonne of cards (or watching your opponent) for a trivial action you're just doing for the sake of using up ap can be sap some fun out of games.

I've also thought dead profiles have been an issue since before second ed. Every master getting their own crew leads to a lot of redundancy and the pricing not being particularly granular or transparent doesn't help. Wyrd have been doing and admiral job of trying to make every model relevant, but that does come with the burden of extra complexity.

Obviously it's in their interest to keep putting out new models, but I wonder of the gameplay would have benefitted from more standardisation in the profiles e.g. all gamin being identical bar creatures type, various generic duster and revolver types getting one profile but multiple models.

On the whole I'm enjoying doing a bit of painting and modelling for Malifaux again. I doubt I'll be playing competitively again and that is in a small way due to complexity creep, but a lot more to do with time constraints.

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6 minutes ago, 7thSquirrel said:

But for a skirmish game there sure are a lot of things I have to own/know about in order to be a "Master" of my own Faction. A solution to me would be to remove the mercs being able to hire out of Faction cause that would cut my options down by ~1/3 and put me in a more comfortable place in terms of variety of what I have to own ...

You don't really have to own all of those models though. 

- Most of the mercs tend to have better in faction alternatives at the same price point.
- Sandeep does just fine without hiring out of faction Academics.
- Marcus has plenty of choices with just Arcanist Beasts, and a lot of the out of faction Beasts are worth hiring or there is an Arcanist model that can fill the same role.
- Mei Feng is Ten Thunders and they are kind of expected to bring in models from their other faction.

On top of that there are a lot of Arcanist models that are redundant or just not very good so don't really need to be something you pick up..   

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@WWHSD you are 100% right. But that doesn't stop me from having to consider each and every one and make a decision on whether or not to practice with/purchase it. For me it isn't an issue cause I'm invested enough and have been doing it long enough that I've already done this for everything up until this point, for someone more casual or new I know it causes issues. I know cause I've talked to them and they've said as much.

Plus... I'm a competitionest. 

P.S. Mei actually only brings in 3 models, Sandeep does 6 (one of which is a merc too), they aren't really the issue :P

Edit: Let me put it this way. I can put 145 different models on the table in the game as it currently is. My Faction has 76 different models total, slightly more than 1/2 of my total options. (if the math seems wrong based on my previous post it is because 2 of the "summon only" models are in Faction). Those are two vastly different numbers in terms of manageability for players. And when trying to consider the other options outside of their Faction I've seen some people get a bit overwhelmed.

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It's a tough spot. If the game is going to continue to grow (as in, new ANYTHING, models, books, whatever), that inherently makes it tougher for a new person to get started, because each new thing is one more to pile on. Yet, if it doesn't continue to grow, veterans will get tired of the same combo's and same toys and move on to other games. Attracting new fans is still important, but the base is the people who are already playing. You know they are customers already (easier to keep an existing customer than to acquire a new one).

 

It's a tough spot. As a fan, I want the range to continue to grow, acknowledging it means I'm going to get beat by combo's I've never seen before. If Malifaux stopped growing, I would eventually get tired and drift off to other games that offered new possibilities. I'd rather the new possibilities be right in Malifaux.

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1 minute ago, 7thSquirrel said:

@WWHSD you are 100% right. But that doesn't stop me from having to consider each and every one and make a decision on whether or not to practice/purchase it. For me it isn't an issue cause I'm invested enough and have been doing it long enough that I've already done this, for someone more casual or new I know it causes issues. I know cause I've talked to them and they've said as much.

Plus... I'm a competitionest. 

P.S. Mei actually only brings in 3 models, Sandeep does 6 (one of which is a merc too), they aren't really the issue :P

I guess that things could be a bit overwhelming to new players. I started playing after book 4 was released and didn't find it to be too bad but I'm the type of person that reads up and researches the games I'm playing.

I may have lucked out choosing Ramos as my first master since there are a lot of things in his box that can be used with any other crew box to good effect. I think that Arcanists as a whole are in a pretty good place when it comes to being able to use most of what comes in a crew box and supplementing it with a few models.

A game like Malifaux is constantly expanding it's model count. With 7 factions, every release contains a lot of new models. It seems like the way to keep a model pool this big "simple" is to make each model a combination of stock abilities and weapons with a stat line. I think would end up with a much different feeling game than Malifaux,  

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Interesting idea to cut out the cognitive load of mercs...many are duplicated in some factions now, but what’s missing...

That b... Anna is the most indispensable with her unique and powerful counter to PLACE effects. Push and move resistance is scattered in some factions.

Sue brings anti-Ca tech to factions which lack it. In the face of Sh having cover as a counter, Ca is frequently better, as some have noted. Anti-Ca helped hold that in check.

Performers bring don’t mind me and its power to score VP. That is starting to leak into other factions, but not enough for them to leave the mercenary roster. Also uniquely well priced in how hard you have to think about the mercenary tax on hiring them.

 

 

Adding a stock stat card plus max two unique data points to older models (3 waves back?) might do, without taking the shine off the newest and best. After three years we know exactly what makes a terror tot different than a gupp and can express it in fewer abilities.

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55 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

That b... Anna is the most indispensable with her unique and powerful counter to PLACE effects. Push and move resistance is scattered in some factions.

She also makes you purchase 1 or 2 more out of Faction models for her summon trigger (the two "summon only" models I referenced in my posts that are out of Faction). Well played Wyrd.

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I'm in a similar spot as WWHSD, I started playing about October of 2017, so after book 5 was released. I also picked Ramos as my first master. I honestly don't find model bloat be an issue. I love how many options there are, and running into things I haven't seen before. I like that they release new stuff that breathes life into lesser used models/masters (Union steamfitter is a huge bonus to Ramos, Kandara was obviously meant for Sandeep, Backdraft seems like it may help Kaeris out)

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For me Malifaux started and has always been a casual game that I enjoy because of the sculpts, the fluff, and the universe.  I started playing in 2010 and collected Seamus and Dreamer because of those exact reasons.  I tend to not commit much to memory about opponents' models, and only some of my own to be honest.  I've always liked the idea of tournaments being single master for that reason as well.  It's a characterful game and that draws me in.  As a primarily Neverborn player now, I don't want to have to play Collodi to have a better chance of winning and would rather play Lynch because I like the models.  Fixed list would be fine with me, or let people know in a tournament packet beforehand what the schemes and strats will be so they can craft their lists for their master.  Can Wyrd do anything?  I don't know that there is really anything that needs to be done.  Yes there are a lot of models, but that provides variety.  Thinking back to one of the big reasons I left GW in the dust was becasue I was tired of facing the same Dark Elves and Daemons lists every game with little variation while I played an army that I enjoyed, but wasn't super competitive.  I think there needs to be some definitive clarification on elevation, however.  Either don't use elevation (no going in buildings or on rooftops or hilltops) which is boring or make some official ruling and call it a core rules errata.  

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It is getting too complex. The challenge really occurs in games against masters or combos you haven't spent much time with or haven't seen before. Although you review cards beforehand and ask your opponent some questions, by the time you really understand what that combo actually does on the table it's too late for you. I've been running mostly TT lately and have seen people who didn't really get what Smoke & Shadows would do until they had three last blossom minions scoring public demo turn one or who didn't fully appreciate just what a couple of pushes and fast could do for Misaki with recalled training. I faced it against a Seamus crew recently where i didn't realize that passing a horror duel by taking a disengaging strike could kill my model (otherwise I wouldn't have taken that strike)! Those sorts of things can be difficult with so many masters in the game. When I go into a tournament game my first hope is that I understand what the opponent's crew does for the most part. If I know that I can handle it. 

That challenge is created by having some many different unique abilities in the game. It makes it interesting but very hard to track and manage. It leads to situations where some of the consistently good players are those who simply know what everything does. They spend enough time with the game to have developed a pretty deep understanding of the game so they almost always know both what their models are going to do but also what your models have the ability to do. 

I'm not sure how you minimize the complexity without watering it down. 

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I've said it before but I think Malifaux is Gotcha the Game. Don't get me wrong, it's still fun for the most part, but I'm not that fond of the design philosophy of making units unique by adding wordier and wordier unique rules as times goes by. I consider a game like Epic Armageddon, which had a list of unit and weapon abilities in the main rules and built all the units from those (and varying scores of course), much more elegant.

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