Holes in Ten Thunders

[Joachim]

On 4/20/2018 at 9:58 AM, whodares said:

1. For me a Rider works with the stacking mechanic and costs 10 stones, thesame as the other Riders.

2. Misaki just got hit with the nerf-bat which went too far imo

3. (summonable rider-like models are fine? I want to summon Yasunori too ...)

1. So by your definition the mechanical rider is not a rider as she costs 12ss?

😛

2. I haven't faced Misaki so I can't truly judge this, though I think Misaki wave 5 initially was a bit over the top (though I won't argue that there aren't a lot of really strong stuff out there, looking at you nicodem with your stable of kentauroi). I think it is still very strong, and I also think she is designed as a very risky very aggressive model and I think that is represented well in how she's turned out. 

3. Kentauroi are very good, don't get me wrong, but how are they riderlike (wk6, cg10 ?, cause the lone marshal and mounted guard also have this, it is quite general for mounted models) since they lack the scaling mechanic. And they're definitely no yasunori :).

[Joachim]

16 hours ago, whodares said:

They took it down from 12" to 8", so 4" range difference. That's quite a big deal.

 

Blasts are already great offense since it bypasses a lot of defenses.

The things that protect against blasts are spreading out and armor. Placing blasts within 12" almost completely negates the ability to position/defend against it. A circkle with a radius of 12" is huge. 8" is still plenty and still makes it hard for the opponent to position safely.

[Joachim]

15 hours ago, hollow1351 said:

Another blast user Rasputina attacks from 24" (Ice Mirror) and with damage track 3/5/6 with Ice Gamin. The only advantage of Misaki over these two ladies now is that she can put blasts not touching each other which can be handled easily with right positioning.

That is a huge thing. An experienced player will not position so that you can hit half of his crew. Though I will not argue that rasputina is not strong.

[Tris]

1 hour ago, hollow1351 said:

Of course this is subjective, but look, Thunders are unique in that 6 of 8 our masters are duals. Are any of them considered to be tear 1 in their second faction? No. Do they play much better in TT? Not realy, except of Misaki maybe.

See, I´m under the impression that every double faction TT is better in TT than in their other faction, save maybe for Yan Lo^^

[Mr Janje]

20 minutes ago, Tris said:

See, I´m under the impression that every double faction TT is better in TT than in their other faction, save maybe for Yan Lo^^

I think brewmaster MAY play better in TT than Gremlins

Yasunori & Misdirection being the key pieces

 

[whodares]

53 minutes ago, Joachim said:

1. So by your definition the mechanical rider is not a rider as she costs 12ss?

😛

2. I haven't faced Misaki so I can't truly judge this, though I think Misaki wave 5 initially was a bit over the top (though I won't argue that there aren't a lot of really strong stuff out there, looking at you nicodem with your stable of kentauroi). I think it is still very strong, and I also think she is designed as a very risky very aggressive model and I think that is represented well in how she's turned out. 

3. Kentauroi are very good, don't get me wrong, but how are they riderlike (wk6, cg10 ?, cause the lone marshal and mounted guard also have this, it is quite general for mounted models) since they lack the scaling mechanic. And they're definitely no yasunori :).

1. For me the Riders use the stacking mechanic. Mech rider does not use it, so I don't really see him as a "real" rider. Same as Lone Marshal and Mounted Guard, they are also not riders even though the have thesame stats that should "make" them riders.

 

2. Pre-nerf was too much, I agree with that. The nerf gutted ALL points of power instead of just a single one. The range reduction should have been enough. Since Misaki also needs LoS to the marker, it becomes difficult to perfectly place it to hit too many models with it.

 

3. if Yasunori is a Rider, then Kentauroi, Lone Marshal, Mounted Guard, ... are also Riders due to their 6/10 stats. They have a huge threat range even when summoned and their damage track (on charge) is rather high.

 

41 minutes ago, Joachim said:

Blasts are already great offense since it bypasses a lot of defenses.

The things that protect against blasts are spreading out and armor. Placing blasts within 12" almost completely negates the ability to position/defend against it. A circkle with a radius of 12" is huge. 8" is still plenty and still makes it hard for the opponent to position safely.

As mentioned before, LoS requirement actually makes this harder to use than one might expect. The "circle" you speak of only has spots where they can be placed. Model behind a building? Forget it. Remember that you also need LoS to the impacted model from a blast as per the rules. The amount of models you can actually hit is a lot lower than one might expect.

[Tris]

10 minutes ago, whodares said:

1. For me the Riders use the stacking mechanic. Mech rider does not use it, so I don't really see him as a "real" rider.

So, what is Mech Riders Def trigger using instead, if not the stacking mechanic?

Quote

As mentioned before, LoS requirement actually makes this harder to use than one might expect. The "circle" you speak of only has spots where they can be placed. Model behind a building? Forget it. Remember that you also need LoS to the impacted model from a blast as per the rules. The amount of models you can actually hit is a lot lower than one might expect.

But the same holds true for any other blaster, right?

Misaki is still the most flexible "blaster" in that sense

[whodares]

7 minutes ago, Tris said:

So, what is Mech Riders Def trigger using instead, if not the stacking mechanic?

I don't know all the "Rider" models by heart. Since I was asked whether or not it's a rider, I expected it not to have the stacking mechanic. Guess it's only the stone cost in difference then, but don't pin me on that. Stacking mechanic with 6/10 stats = Rider for me.

 

9 minutes ago, Tris said:

But the same holds true for any other blaster, right?

Misaki is still the most flexible "blaster" in that sense

Depends on what you see as flexible. Don't get me wrong, she is more flexible in where she PLACES blasts. However her target selection is rather fixed. the opposing model needs to be within charge range for it to work, which means you're exposing your master to a certain amount of risk. This is a non-flexible part of Misaki.

Masters like Sonnia and Rasputina have less flexibility in PLACING blasts, but more flexibility in TARGETTING. if you are within range, you can (and should) expect these masters to come after you. Rasputina can have an absurd amount of range on her spells and Sonnia can (possibly) ignore LoS and cover. They also have anti-retaliation abilities which make sure you better hit with that attack you get on them. Sonnia attacks you back for 2/3/5 (with 0/1/2 blast markers), Rasputina just ends your activation.

 

Now to talk about damage potential.

Let's start off with Sonnia, probably one of the hardest blast hitters. 2/3/5 does not seem like that great of a track, but the trigger lets you give Burning +1 to ALL DAMAGED MODELS. This means this becomes a 3/4/6 attack with 0/2/3 blast markers. 3 blast markers can hit quite a lot of things. With her (0) action, she's also shooting at you with ca 9, so good luck blocking the shots. After hitting the burning trigger, it becomes possible to target any of those models and then blast off from there., which can lead to quite some absurd situations. She could possible place markers even further than Misaki's 8" range on her 3rd AP.

 

Rasputina is the postergirl for long-range blasting. A damage track of 2/4/5 with 0/1/2 blasts isn't really that much worse than Sonnia with her burning Trigger. Whereas Sonnia can place more blasts, Rasputina has an Overpower Trigger, possibly leading to, in a perfect situation, 6 attacks with that damage track. Whatever was close to those targets is probably going to be dead or severely weakened at least. Then there's also a trigger for card draw, which is great if you know you're finishing off your opponent and can't use the Overpower Trigger.

 

We've seen Sonnia and Rasputina now. As you can see, they also get slowed down by armor. However they have the Triggers needed to bypass that in a meaningful way AND the safety of being ranged. Now let's head over to Misaki.

 

Misaki has a 2"  range on an 8" charge. the damage track is 2/3/5 with 0/1/2 blast markers. Same damage track as Sonnia, a lot lower damage due to fewer blast markers. Misaki has a Trigger that let's you cheat the damage regardless of modifiers, which helps her at least. It does need high cards to work. If you have 6 severes in hand, go crazy and use 3 severe attacks to deal a ton of 3x3damage to models via the blasts. It would be glorious to see.

 

As you can see, Misaki's best-case scenario is A LOT better than Sonnia's or Raspi's. The question then becomes how often you can reliably get that off. Looking at Rasputina and Sonnia, they can pump out of focussed shot to guarantee 1 attack getting that and they still have 1 AP left for another attack. Misaki needs to focus and charge, which is almost thesame thing. The downside is that you can kill a target with that severe and waste an AP because of it.

That must mean Misaki must have some great defenses because she's melee, right? Well, ... Bulletproof 1 won't really help you and getting anything better requires upgrade slots and/or other models. And then after she Thundered, she's left wide open for a counter attack. This means you'll have to choose the right timing or you can expect a dead master on the next activation.

 

To recap: Misaki's damage potential is currently a lot higher than either Rasputina and Sonnia, but is impossible to get due to card requirements from your hand. having 3 severes to cheat damage after flipping lucky on damage is also unrealistic, so that best-case scenario will probably NEVER happen. This brings her current damage more in line with the others. The difference is she has no built-in abilities to discourage attacking her when she goes melee mode. As it is right now, Misaki is just a more card-intensive overextended Rasputina, which does not sound all that great to me.

 

Do note I kept things like Recalled Training and the like out of the equation as I don't know all those interactions by heart (yet). Misaki can go crazy for a single Turn with RT, but I don't know the impact some other upgrades can have for the other masters.

[Ludvig]

@whodares

Sonia only hits you back if you fail a Ca and she got the right suit. Smack her with a decent melee attack or shoot her and she'll just stand there going ow.

Misaki can get the misdirection thing going for her so there's that. 

[lusciousmccabe]

17 hours ago, hollow1351 said:

Another blast user Rasputina attacks from 24" (Ice Mirror) and with damage track 3/5/6 with Ice Gamin. The only advantage of Misaki over these two ladies now is that she can put blasts not touching each other which can be handled easily with right positioning.

So being much faster, having higher Def and being threatening in melee aren't advantages now? Obviously Rasputin's is going to be better at dealing blast damage than Misaki, that's her whole thing. If Misaki had Raspy or Sonnia's ranged game and all her other stuff she'd be a bit silly.

Or a wave 5 master.

[Tris]

8 minutes ago, whodares said:

Masters like Sonnia and Rasputina have less flexibility in PLACING blasts, but more flexibility in TARGETTING.

I can agree with that, it just didn`t sound like that before - they are different, and we where talking about placing the blast markers 

8 minutes ago, whodares said:

Now to talk about damage potential.

Let's start off with Sonnia, probably one of the hardest blast hitters. 2/3/5 does not seem like that great of a track, but the trigger lets you give Burning +1 to ALL DAMAGED MODELS. This means this becomes a 3/4/6 attack with 0/2/3 blast markers. 3 blast markers can hit quite a lot of things. With her (0) action, she's also shooting at you with ca 9, so good luck blocking the shots. After hitting the burning trigger, it becomes possible to target any of those models and then blast off from there., which can lead to quite some absurd situations. She could possible place markers even further than Misaki's 8" range on her 3rd AP.

I don`t quite get that part - her range does not increase while attacking burning models?

Sure, she get`s to ignore LoS and cover but I´m at a loss why her 3rd ap should be able to place markers any further than her 2nd for example.

 

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, whodares said:

1. For me the Riders use the stacking mechanic. Mech rider does not use it, so I don't really see him as a "real" rider. Same as Lone Marshal and Mounted Guard, they are also not riders even though the have thesame stats that should "make" them riders.

 

Mech Rider does use it. I will agree that its use has gone down over its various errata, but it still gains more tomes each turn, and it still has at least 1 trigger based on the number of tomes in its final total. (the Df one)

There are 4 riders, and they are suit based. They are in the factions that are most associated with those suits, due to the history of the game.  So the 3 factions that aren't so suit associated don't have a rider. 

4 hours ago, whodares said:

Misaki does not have an easy way to get  to attack and/or damage flips. She has a trigger that allows you to cheat, that's true. However you're once again using either specific high cards for the trigger or a stone and a high card together with another high card to cheat in severe damage. When your master has to make that much of an investment and the payoff is almost nothing, that's depressing.

5 hours ago, hollow1351 said:

So easily, realy? I can list most of them: Shenlong's crew (focus once per activation), Recalled Training (for stone, requires free slot, one turn only), Dragon Stone (stone, slot, once per game), Mei with burning, Kang (aura against constructs and undeads only), Emissary (1 attack only), Lynch's minions against Briliance. + Don't forget 1for damage will give you a normal flip in most cases, considering that there are less high cards in a deck then low and medium (3 to 5 to 5) you'll get low or moderate more often without cheating. I can say that other factions have as many or even more ways to gainwhen damaged (hard to wound, impossible to wound) + don't forget every master or henchman can use stone to give you additionalfor damage flip.

Have you looked at other factions? Ten thunders do get Focus more easily than any other faction I would say. So yes whilst they have poor weak damage generally, their moderate is not worse and they are much more likely to reach it as they are likely to at least be able to cheat the damage. a straight flip is likely to do moderate  or better anyway, and the ease at which you can cheat in a relatively low card (6-8) that you might not otherwise have a use for is higher. 

 You both appear to have missed Misakis Stalking Bisento.

There are also plenty of ways the faction makes better use of actions like focus or defensive, gaining extra conditions when it does gain them. 

Sure, TT may require a little more support to get their best out of damage, but they are probably the best faction for support, so that sort of cancels itself out, some times at least. 

 

[whodares]

23 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@whodares

Sonia only hits you back if you fail a Ca and she got the right suit. Smack her with a decent melee attack or shoot her and she'll just stand there going ow.

Misaki can get the misdirection thing going for her so there's that. 

I simplified it to not write an entire essay. Misdirection is an upgrade, which I mentioned I left out on purpose for simplification. Getting to Sonnia in Ml range in no small feat and Guild packs enough punch to punish failed alpha strikes hard.

 

16 minutes ago, Tris said:

I don`t quite get that part - her range does not increase while attacking burning models?

Sure, she get`s to ignore LoS and cover but I´m at a loss why her 3rd ap should be able to place markers any further than her 2nd for example.

I assume you can't just place markers in a straight line directly away from Sonnia and you need to place them to hit models say ... 2" behind initial target. Do this 3 times and you can hit a model 6" away from the initial target which should be reachable with Sonnia. A blast marker is slightly larger than 2", hence you can have a theoretical higher range you can hit with the blast markers. I hope I explained that clearly enough.

 

15 minutes ago, Adran said:

Mech Rider does use it. I will agree that its use has gone down over its various errata, but it still gains more tomes each turn, and it still has at least 1 trigger based on the number of tomes in its final total. (the Df one)

There are 4 riders, and they are suit based. They are in the factions that are most associated with those suits, due to the history of the game.  So the 3 factions that aren't so suit associated don't have a rider. 

I understand why they don't have suits, but that doesn't mean they are thesame type of model just because they've been given thesame classification. The suited riders are scaling models, while "riders" such as Yasunori don't have that insane Turn 4-5 potential that the other riders have. Yasunori can be killed throughout the game, while suited riders are rather hard to kill from Turn 3 onwards.

 

18 minutes ago, Adran said:

Have you looked at other factions? Ten thunders do get Focus more easily than any other faction I would say. So yes whilst they have poor weak damage generally, their moderate is not worse and they are much more likely to reach it as they are likely to at least be able to cheat the damage. a straight flip is likely to do moderate  or better anyway, and the ease at which you can cheat in a relatively low card (6-8) that you might not otherwise have a use for is higher. 

A lot of Ten Thunder models have the ability that they can get an additional focus, but that already requires you to spend 1 AP so you can put out 1 attack with Focus +2. This becomes straight-up stupid with (extreme example) Monk of High River as he has 2 contradicting abilities. 1 is Focus +1 and the other is Charge +1 attack on dropping a card. Unless your Monk is Fast or the master is Shenlong, he can't even use both his abilities at thesame time.

The easy focus is a myth I would actually like to discuss as well. Unless your master is Shenlong, we don't have easy Focus. Even with Shenlong you're sacrificing potential great (0) actions from the models themselves. Considering we're talking about Misaki here, we don't have easy access to Focus.

 

24 minutes ago, Adran said:

 You both appear to have missed Misakis Stalking Bisento.

Stalking Bisento is also Limited. You can swap it out later with Terracotta Warrior, but then you're already needing support models for a master to actually work as intended. Imagine Shenlong needing Terracotta Warrior to swap styles, that would be really bad right?

 

27 minutes ago, Adran said:

There are also plenty of ways the faction makes better use of actions like focus or defensive, gaining extra conditions when it does gain them. 

Our damage tracks kind of make it a requirement to use focus, which is something that should not be. Why should I focus and cheat in a severe card for 5 damage if other factions can just hit you twice and do 6 damage due to their min 3? Something is just not right there. Focus is also not a guarantee to be able to cheat damage as Hard to Wound just negates focus for damage flips and you'll need to win by at least 6 for the neutral flip.

Defensive costs you cards, except for a couple of specific models and a 1 AP action. Then your opponent can still brute-force it down with a high card and you'll stand there looking stupid.

 

31 minutes ago, Adran said:

Sure, TT may require a little more support to get their best out of damage, but they are probably the best faction for support, so that sort of cancels itself out, some times at least. 

Ten Thunders need more support than other factions to SOMETIMES get to thesame level as the other factions. Something tells me you intended to write down something a bit different which meant to say we can play on thesame field as the other factions. Right now the forte of Thunders is mobility and usually maps don't allow 15" straight pushes so we get blunted there a bit.

 

 

On a side note: Shenlong is probably the worst thing that happened to our faction. Shenlong and Recalled Training are, in my opinion, the reason why we are not allowed to have models such as Nekima/Howard/... I can fully agree that would be too broken and Yasunori is already on the line, albeit because he has 10" as well. Due to the amount of support Shenlong can pump out, we can't have the really nice things which leaves our other masters sub-par as Shenlong is the best power amplifier in the game. Imagine pushing Nekima 10" up the board, giving her fast, dropping Recalled Training and charging something. That's bloody scary and the target is almost guaranteed dead. 4 attacks of min 4 is almost thesame as Viks, except they have low Wound count.

[Joachim]

11 minutes ago, whodares said:

Yasunori can be killed throughout the game, while suited riders are rather hard to kill from Turn 3 onwards.

Rest assured, a lot of things in the game can bypass the riders defenses. Things that ignore triggers, ignore armor reduction, blast damage, pulses and auras. 10 wounds without soulstone use only gets you so far. They become very resilient late game but there are answers to any type of defence in this game.

[Ludvig]

@whodares

If we are simplifying to the point of not accounting for upgrades I think it's a little weird to count in Papa Loco who is an entire model and makes you jump through hoops to get that buff. In that case we should probably be comparing Sonnia without Loco, Francisco or any pushes which is a pretty different model that does not compare well to Misaki on a number of parameters. Unbuffed Sonnia only has the discard for ca 9 which means she hits on lower cards but very rarely has cheatable damage. She is also df 4. If a 5ss terracotta is too much support for Misaki to count then why are we discussing Sonnia based on 15ss (+mandatory upgrades for those buffers) of models? It's sort of hard to completely discount the support available in faction.

For the discussion: Will Misaki without any upgrades or support models blast better than Sonnia with 15ss of support? I think everyone agrees that Sonnia is an infintely better blaster under these conditions. I just don't feel that it's a very meaningful comparison.

I think Sonnia reaches a little over 8" from the original target if she hits severe. If there is a model in cover that is within her range but not visible to the first attack and she stones for the trigger to put burning out you can probably reach new models with subsequent blasts so I get what you are saying with that.

Having Shenlong and recalled training to easily give you positives to damage isn't really much of a design limit on giving decent weak damage. The less difference between weak and moderate the less of a bonus will be gained from having a positive.

[whodares]

12 minutes ago, Joachim said:

Rest assured, a lot of things in the game can bypass the riders defenses. Things that ignore triggers, ignore armor reduction, blast damage, pulses and auras. 10 wounds without soulstone use only gets you so far. They become very resilient late game but there are answers to any type of defence in this game.

You mean those things Thunders are severely lacking? 😛

 

7 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@whodares

If we are simplifying to the point of not accounting for upgrades I think it's a little weird to count in Papa Loco who is an entire model and makes you jump through hoops to get that buff. In that case we should probably be comparing Sonnia without Loco, Francisco or any pushes which is a pretty different model that does not compare well to Misaki on a number of parameters. Unbuffed Sonnia only has the discard for ca 9 which means she hits on lower cards but very rarely has cheatable damage. She is also df 4. If a 5ss terracotta is too much support for Misaki to count then why are we discussing Sonnia based on 15ss (+mandatory upgrades for those buffers) of models? It's sort of hard to completely discount the support available in faction.

My comparison was actually using Sonnia without any support models, just the base card vs Misaki with The Storm upgrade. Df 4 is very low, but she has range and high damage. Giving Sonnia a baseline of Df 6 is absurd, yet Papa Loco allows higher.

Ca 9 generally allows you to win the initial duel flip, which means you have an idea of what your attack will allow you to do. You have +3 advantage against a Df 6 model. If your opponent cheats a 7 or lower, you will win the duel and get the blast. If he cheats a 13, you only have to cheat in a 10 and can try to go for blasts next attack when he already burnt a top card. The other party only has so many 8+ cards in his hand to use against Sonnia's attacks. If he uses them all against Sonnia, you're gonna have a really great Turn I'd say.

 

Misaki has a 7 stat on her attack, which means it's going to be a lot closer when it comes to winning on the flip. This gives less control to you, unless you decide to drop 2 severe cards for that single attack. Right now, that is NOT worth it if your opponent is running a crew with armor. You also still have to have 2 severe cards in your hand at that point, which can be rather ... tricky as your opponent will know he can just override anything else afterwards. If he countercharges you and he still has a severe in hand, Misaki is going to eat that damage and there are a couple of models out there that can outright kill her. That doesn't sound like a great deal vs doing thesame thing safe from range.

[Adran]

14 minutes ago, whodares said:

 

Ten Thunders need more support than other factions to SOMETIMES get to thesame level as the other factions. Something tells me you intended to write down something a bit different which meant to say we can play on thesame field as the other factions. Right now the forte of Thunders is mobility and usually maps don't allow 15" straight pushes so we get blunted there a bit.

 

 

On a side note: Shenlong is probably the worst thing that happened to our faction. Shenlong and Recalled Training are, in my opinion, the reason why we are not allowed to have models such as Nekima/Howard/... I can fully agree that would be too broken and Yasunori is already on the line, albeit because he has 10" as well. Due to the amount of support Shenlong can pump out, we can't have the really nice things which leaves our other masters sub-par as Shenlong is the best power amplifier in the game. Imagine pushing Nekima 10" up the board, giving her fast, dropping Recalled Training and charging something. That's bloody scary and the target is almost guaranteed dead. 4 attacks of min 4 is almost thesame as Viks, except they have low Wound count.

What I was trying to say is that is you compare individual model to individual model, you would see TT giving lower damage on average. But if you consider it along with some support (focus' from Shen long, effectively free focus against certain targets from Kang and so forth) then the TT Damage output increases quite a bit. So a lot of the time getting 1 focused on a TT model means that you are probably doing as much over the 2 attacks (1 focused 1 normal) as a comparable model does without the focus. Sometimes it'll be more. And whilst yes you are potentially looking at extra cost to get there because something has given them that bonus, its a much easier bonus to get.

 

I also agree that the Faction as a whole seems to have to be balanced around the relatively easy access to positive flips. And its perfectly possible to build TT crews that don't have any access to positive flips, its also perfectly possible to build a Resser list that can't summon and that doesn't stop summoning being a strong point of the Resser faction that they have to taek into account. 

 

25 minutes ago, whodares said:

Our damage tracks kind of make it a requirement to use focus, which is something that should not be. Why should I focus and cheat in a severe card for 5 damage if other factions can just hit you twice and do 6 damage due to their min 3? Something is just not right there. Focus is also not a guarantee to be able to cheat damage as Hard to Wound just negates focus for damage flips and you'll need to win by at least 6 for the neutral flip.

Which is the better damage track, 1/3/5 or 2/3/4?

Most of the time you will find the 2/3/4 will do more damage if you just take (1) Ap attacks. If you start using Focus then sometimes the 1/3/5 attack with focus is better than 2 lots of 2/3/4.

You're right Hard to wound is a good counter to focus, but Focus is a relatively good counter to Armor, since it would only apply once not twice (so on my example profiles above focus on the 1/3/5 does even better against Amor models than the 2  attacks at 2/3/4. )

Using Focus is potentially less card intensive than making 2 attacks. So it may be that to force through the 2 minimum 3 attacks you talk about you need to cheat in 2 high cards just to hit. With the focus attack, you are much less likely to need to cheat to hit, and so whilst you are more likely to need to cheat the damage flip, its probably used the same 2 cards over all. The chance of missing 1 of the 2 attacks where you didn't focus is something that many people miss out of this sort of calculation, which often makes the 2 attacks seem even better. 

So building a faction that encourages you to use focus, and can offer the models rewards for using it is not intrisically flawed. (Thats not saying that they have it right at the moment, but it isn't flawed that the faction works better if it focuses)

 

 

[Ludvig]

There is a fairly large selection of models that have no problem getting to where Sonnia is if the board has any sort of blocking terrain. A leaping cerberus, Vik of Blood and nimble + fast Yasinori to name a few examples. I've had Sonnia killed on turn one or early turn two in an awful lot of games, she is not safe against most current lists because of all the mobility available to pretty much all factions. The humble even Seamus popped around once and showed her his bag of tools which ended up killing her despite Francisco being all brotherly. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that Misaki usually takes a much bigger risk than Sonnia to do her thing but then TT has a few nice tricks to deflect attacks as has been mentioned here.

[whodares]

6 minutes ago, Adran said:

What I was trying to say is that is you compare individual model to individual model, you would see TT giving lower damage on average. But if you consider it along with some support (focus' from Shen long, effectively free focus against certain targets from Kang and so forth) then the TT Damage output increases quite a bit. So a lot of the time getting 1 focused on a TT model means that you are probably doing as much over the 2 attacks (1 focused 1 normal) as a comparable model does without the focus. Sometimes it'll be more. And whilst yes you are potentially looking at extra cost to get there because something has given them that bonus, its a much easier bonus to get.

 

I also agree that the Faction as a whole seems to have to be balanced around the relatively easy access to positive flips. And its perfectly possible to build TT crews that don't have any access to positive flips, its also perfectly possible to build a Resser list that can't summon and that doesn't stop summoning being a strong point of the Resser faction that they have to taek into account. 

I'll agree with you on the fact that a focussed attack can do thesame damage as 2 attacks, but that depends on the min damage of those attacks. You also have to be in range to place said attack, which means you can't do a focus charge unless the master is Shenlong. Even then Shenlong has a 6" aura so that's not crew-wide all the time. It's also not correct that the models have a damage track for Focus when only 1 master can easily hand out focus. The rest of the masters don't have that luxury and are therefore less competitive. There's a reason why Shenlong has always been the S+ master for our faction, yet our faction still hasn't performed up to par on big events.

 

14 minutes ago, Adran said:

Which is the better damage track, 1/3/5 or 2/3/4?

Most of the time you will find the 2/3/4 will do more damage if you just take (1) Ap attacks. If you start using Focus then sometimes the 1/3/5 attack with focus is better than 2 lots of 2/3/4.

You're right Hard to wound is a good counter to focus, but Focus is a relatively good counter to Armor, since it would only apply once not twice (so on my example profiles above focus on the 1/3/5 does even better against Amor models than the 2  attacks at 2/3/4. )

Using Focus is potentially less card intensive than making 2 attacks. So it may be that to force through the 2 minimum 3 attacks you talk about you need to cheat in 2 high cards just to hit. With the focus attack, you are much less likely to need to cheat to hit, and so whilst you are more likely to need to cheat the damage flip, its probably used the same 2 cards over all. The chance of missing 1 of the 2 attacks where you didn't focus is something that many people miss out of this sort of calculation, which often makes the 2 attacks seem even better. 

 

I would generally like the higher min damage as you can get more luxury out of that. As you mentioned, either attack can be stronger under different circumstances. I do feel higher min damage outweighs the focus as it just is generally better and can give you more freedom (aka charge, move attack, ...) instead of always needing the focus-attack-cheat damage.

 

I also completely agree with it when you say Focus is less card intensive. That's a big part of why to use focus. You mention missing 1/2 attacks and that it skews the equation. You can get that thrown back and say that your opponent can cheat your focussed attack and you might not be able to even cheat for the equalizer. Now you have 0/2 AP that hit while the other situation had 1/2 that hit and actually did damage. Focus forms a big "CHEAT NOW TO STOP DAMAGE" flag for a single card.

 

21 minutes ago, Adran said:

So building a faction that encourages you to use focus, and can offer the models rewards for using it is not intrisically flawed. (Thats not saying that they have it right at the moment, but it isn't flawed that the faction works better if it focuses)

I was perhaps a bit harsh with my wording. I agree it's not a flawed premise, but rather a flawed execution right now. When half your faction mechanic is dependant on a single master (Shenlong) it leaves the other masters longing for more. Shenlong embodies the Ten Thunders, while others just try to work with it. lore-wise this is perfect, but game-wise this is lacking.

 

14 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

There is a fairly large selection of models that have no problem getting to where Sonnia is if the board has any sort of blocking terrain. A leaping cerberus, Vik of Blood and nimble + fast Yasinori to name a few examples. I've had Sonnia killed on turn one or early turn two in an awful lot of games, she is not safe against most current lists because of all the mobility available to pretty much all factions. The humble even Seamus popped around once and showed her his bag of tools which ended up killing her despite Francisco being all brotherly. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that Misaki usually takes a much bigger risk than Sonnia to do her thing but then TT has a few nice tricks to deflect attacks as has been mentioned here.

Due to the fact that Thunders are an elite faction, we are almmost always getting outactivated. This means you have to put Misaki in danger while the opponent has an easier time negating possible damage tracks from Misaki. You are not going to rocket shoot her 10" on the opponents side of the board without any backup as that would be suicide. That's a really, really big gamble which will not pay off against experienced players.

The tricks Thunders have that have been mentioned so far are Misdirection and .... umm? Even then Misdirection is not a guarantee as your opponent gets the option to drop resources and still have the attack go through. You're also reliant on having a second model within the 2" range as you can't misdirect back onto the attacker.

Right now Misaki is either a discount Sonnia or a discount Lady Justice and both of them are safer (Lady J Swordfighter) and easier to pull off, while having thesame level of threat and damage. I really have difficulty seeing as to why Misaki can't be allowed a nice thing that would make her our second S+ master while still not being overly oppressive.

[Joachim]

44 minutes ago, whodares said:

You mean those things Thunders are severely lacking? 😛

 

You could argue that the thunders actually have the mobility to attack the rider earlier on  

 

[Joachim]

11 minutes ago, whodares said:

Right now Misaki is either a discount Sonnia or a discount Lady Justice and both of them are safer (Lady J Swordfighter) and easier to pull off, while having thesame level of threat and damage. I really have difficulty seeing as to why Misaki can't be allowed a nice thing that would make her our second S+ master while still not being overly oppressive.

Misaki as a discount LJ. She works quite a bit differently, especially with her storm upgrade. Though I do think LJ is better, she's indeed a lot more resilient once she goes in, especially if she brings her friends.

[whodares]

1 hour ago, Joachim said:

Misaki as a discount LJ. She works quite a bit differently, especially with her storm upgrade. Though I do think LJ is better, she's indeed a lot more resilient once she goes in, especially if she brings her friends.

That's why I said discount LJ or Sonnia. It depends on which upgrade she brings. Stalking Bisento is LJ, while The Storm is Sonnia.

[tmod]

On 4/23/2018 at 1:37 PM, whodares said:

1. For me the Riders use the stacking mechanic. Mech rider does not use it, so I don't really see him as a "real" rider. Same as Lone Marshal and Mounted Guard, they are also not riders even though the have thesame stats that should "make" them riders.

Not the main point of the discussion but her goes:

The four riders alle have names in the formula "x rider", and the Horseman characteristic. They were introduced in the first edition book "Twisting Fates", one for each faction then in the game (except the unsuited Outcast faction) with similar stats and mirroring abilities. They were all big models designed as centrepieces in their factions.

In M2e they all cost 12ss, have the same stats, have powers that start out weak and becomes stronger with each turn, a similar defensive pseudo-armour that also gets stronger. In short, weak and pretty much defenceless models early game, powerfull in the last half of the game. Yasunori was compared with the riders even during beta as a big, fast powerfull 12ss model. When released as a big centrepiece model with a rider on its back this impression was strengthened.

Now, after a while things have changed a bit, and the similarities are less striking: Yasunori got a 1ss increase im errata due to being perceived too strong. The non-Mechanical riders where given a 2ss decrease due to being perceived as too weak (!). Hence the five "riders" are basically three regular ones at 10ss, Mechanical at 12ss and Yasunori at 13ss. The main difference otherwise is that Yasunori is much stronger early game and can be used for alpha-strikes, whereas the others are stronger late-game. In that sense Yas is more an anti-rider... 

 

[DonCheadle]

I'd argue YasNas stacks in the sense of enemy VP on the Kodoku trigger (plus he doesn't really get any worse as the game goes on). 

He definitely has similarities (Stubborn, Statline, damage reduction) but isn't one of the riders. 

And let's be honest, be glad that he isn't, imagine him in a Levi crew!

[anencephalous]

Over time some of our weaknesses have been reduced, which is nice.

We now (sort of) have a summoner master.

We now (sort of) have a blaster master.

We are slowly collecting bits and bobs of armour penentration, even if the wave 5 one is pretty iffy.

Our biggest weakness is still a lack of cheap scheme runners.

We do now have Low River Monks who are excellent for their cost and the Akaname have a small but useful role. So with the already good Effigy, we now have enough useful four point models, which is nice. But Tengu are still the worst of all seven faction's scheme runners, and we sorely lack for a four point schemer who does not evaporate, or who can move quickly, or both.

Since guild and outcasts both scored a three pointer, it appears that anyone is allowed to swarm (16 guild guard lists are all the rage I hear). We are now the only faction without a three point model - accepting of course that the quality of those three point models varies significantly - but even so, every one is an activation at the very least. I dont think it would break the faction flavour for us to get a three point chaff model of our own. I imagine some sort of oppressed worker or down trodden drug mule.