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Your ideas how to play vs unstopable crew

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On 5/11/2018 at 7:41 AM, teddyclaw said:

Hi everyone,

I played a game with the very list from the original post. Admittedly, I went in it without any practice with this list, but it was very educational regardless. The table was not one I would call particularly obstructed in terms of terrain. In fact I am sure a gunline would have worked very well in this one. But there was a lot of smaller terrain pieces making pushes kind of tricky. The opponent was Nellie with 2 or 3 reporters, Franc, Peacekeeper, Phiona and a watcher.

What I learned:

1. This crew needs practice. A lot!

2. Setting the crew up even just deployment-wise can be very tough if the terrain is against you. You will probably always be deploying your models very close together, but you really have to pay attention to the distances between all the models to get all the passive effects right.

3. In order to geht the full effect of the card draw, you have to be very speific with you activation order. There might be some room for error, but that is probably where the practice part comes in.

4. In the very beginning, before the drawing engine get going, if you want to get the full effect of all the pushes, summons and ensure the crier turns into a bayou gremlin, some luck is stell involved regarding drawing the right suits and high enough cards in general.

5. Once the card drawing is done, you hand is absolutely amazing! I am sure you could use very similar card draw without the pigs and get great results as well.

6. If the terrain is against you, you will still have a chance to reach at least part of the opponents crew turn 1, but the effectiveness is reduced a lot (I took out only 1 reportes and 1 watcher). 

7. Timing for using One Pig against the world is not as straight forward as you might think.

8. Once the hand from turn one wears off, the effectiveness of the crew diminishes fast.

9. Armor (Peacekeer) and High defense (Phiona near terrain with Francs buff) can completely stopp your attack.

10. It is amazingly good fun :D

 

I will keep playing this list for a bit and see how it performs with more experience on my part and a less bad matchups, as soon as I can and keep you posted.

 

 

See you

Teddy

I can totally back him up here, because i was the opposing Nellie player. What he didn't know was, that i was sweating blood and tears while figuring out what i could do. Even though i was playing Nellie, there was almost no chance of outactivating him to a good benefit. I even used phiona to summon the stone pillar to narrow the path down and used my cheap models (disguised) to block even more paths.

Anyway, playing against a 16+ card hand, was almost a nightmare and the psychological factor of this is HUGE! That is a point where most people will just give up. The pigs were less of a problem than the cards. I had to flip well, while he could cheat to almost perfect conditions due to so much card advantage. My only chance was to get the advantage via high stats.

I think it can be very devastating if the pigs come charging in and destroying almost everything! My main goal was to survive the first two rounds with minor losses while concentraring to kill one big pig after another that had already activated to stop the eat your fill ability. I always used my complete hand every turn to get the most out of it because i could draw 7 new cards, while he drew a lot, but wasn't able to get new cards, which negated his advantage a little bit. Every turn you do not attack or fully charge in with the pigs but you do attack, is almost wasted if it is split because the opponent draws new cards, so if you go in, commit to it!

It was a very interesting game and i had to think about my moves carefully, because 1 misplaced model can mean total annihilation!

 

It is a very strong list, but definitely not unbeatable. Ol' Granny wasn't even in there.

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5 hours ago, Lokibri said:

...I always used my complete hand every turn to get the most out of it because i could draw 7 new cards, while he drew a lot, but wasn't able to get new cards, which negated his advantage a little bit. ...

I am a bit confuse about this part. I think it is a one-off draw engine that gives him a large hand size in the first turn then have to discard into the start of the second turn.

 

While this give me a idea to play against with this crew (with idea how the crew running, though). Nellie can use all her hand to pass activation and wait for Somer to start the drawing engine. After Somer draw half of his deck, Nellie can than fall back to keep Somer's hand consume as low as possible. Which means at the second turn Somer can only keep 6 best card in his hand and others are in the discard pool.

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I thought the Som'er list just redid the same draw thing turn 2? It should still start with pretty decent cards left in hand I suppose.

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I thought the Som'er list just redid the same draw thing turn 2? It should still start with pretty decent cards left in hand I suppose.

Not the way it's currently built, AFAICT. The Gremlin Cryer is part of the first part of the draw engine, and he has to die to spawn the Bayou that forms the latter part of that engine.

That doesn't stop Somer from drawing up to 9 cards per turn by "Gitting your bro" three times, but that's always been a possibility since Banjonistas, if you're willing to spend your Master and a 5AP model sitting there doing nothing else, and is reliant on catching three consecutive 8's. Even with B2C, that seems unlikely (I'd do the math, but I'm lazy, off the top of my head, you'ld probably fail at least once and twice wouldn't be a statistical anomoly), meaning you'ld need to cheat from hand instead, and that seems counterproductive. Yay, I'm drawing 3 cards, but I'm having to burn a good card to do it.

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4 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Not the way it's currently built, AFAICT. The Gremlin Cryer is part of the first part of the draw engine, and he has to die to spawn the Bayou that forms the latter part of that engine.

That doesn't stop Somer from drawing up to 9 cards per turn by "Gitting your bro" three times, but that's always been a possibility since Banjonistas, if you're willing to spend your Master and a 5AP model sitting there doing nothing else, and is reliant on catching three consecutive 8's. Even with B2C, that seems unlikely (I'd do the math, but I'm lazy, off the top of my head, you'ld probably fail at least once and twice wouldn't be a statistical anomoly), meaning you'ld need to cheat from hand instead, and that seems counterproductive. Yay, I'm drawing 3 cards, but I'm having to burn a good card to do it.

I'd burn a 8-10 to draw three any day of the week.

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Turn one you usually have less pressure so you can set up in peace. On later turns you might not have as much success if you need to spend a couple of activations bettering your hand while your opponent spends their activations killing the models you wanted to use those cards for.

Maybe the scare factor of the pigs is strong enough to keep people far away but a few of the guild masters suggested here have a 14" range and a high enough attack stat to brute force through attacks on significantly worse hands than the gremlins will need to defend.

Unfortunately/fortunately(?) I don't see myself facing this list anytime soon. No one I know plays Som'er at the moment.

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Hamelin with Hans stop this crew easily. Add Trapper as well and you inflict pain and misery to Gremlin player... And I'm saying this as Gremlin player myself😉

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4 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Hamelin with Hans stop this crew easily. Add Trapper as well and you inflict pain and misery to Gremlin player... And I'm saying this as Gremlin player myself😉

I can think of a few non-guild lists that should punish this one hard. Just Collodi without any other model could set the pigs off against their own crew in their own activation, Marcus wouldn't mind a couple of super big beasts with wp 4 to play around with either.

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51 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Turn one you usually have less pressure so you can set up in peace. On later turns you might not have as much success if you need to spend a couple of activations bettering your hand while your opponent spends their activations killing the models you wanted to use those cards for.

Maybe the scare factor of the pigs is strong enough to keep people far away but a few of the guild masters suggested here have a 14" range and a high enough attack stat to brute force through attacks on significantly worse hands than the gremlins will need to defend.

Unfortunately/fortunately(?) I don't see myself facing this list anytime soon. No one I know plays Som'er at the moment.

Did we ever get the original player to play this as a vassal game? It sounds like he's really good with it, but if any board going to be too crowded, it's going to be the vassal boards.

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1 minute ago, 4thstringer said:

Did we ever get the original player to play this as a vassal game? It sounds like he's really good with it, but if any board going to be too crowded, it's going to be the vassal boards.

I think someone stated having zero interest in vassal which I assumed was the original player. Can't blame anyone for that, it's not as enjoyable.

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5 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

I'd burn a 8-10 to draw three any day of the week.

But it's not always going to be an 8-10. Would you still cheat if you had to burn an 11+? Would you take the action if you knew you'ld have to gamble on B2C?

There's thirteen 11+ cards. There's twelve 8-10. And the remaining twenty seven cards aren't.

There are a lot of factors to consider, but the one thing I've found in gaming, is that randomness isn't smooth. So this engine might work awesome one round, and completely crap itself the next.

Which means devoting your Master's activation and an additional 8SS of minions, for something that could be awesome, and could stink, doesn't seem a sure thing. 

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Giggety giggety, if this thread was posted in Neverborn it wouldn't have got past page one, unless of course all the Neverborn had started musing about which sauce they like with their bacon rolls!

"Oink, oink"

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15 minutes ago, Ceodoc said:

Giggety giggety, if this thread was posted in Neverborn it wouldn't have got past page one, unless of course all the Neverborn had started musing about which sauce they like with their bacon rolls!

"Oink, oink"

Have you read through this thread and seen how completely all the tips offered where rejected without being tried? The original poster would likely have said the same on the neverborn forums when people said it could easily be handed. Despite that we carried on. Then there's the page or two of meandering discussion on what constitutes appropriate terrain with screenshots, a few jokes when everyone had given up on taking this seriously and now we are here, discussing the diacussion on the thread in the thread. This thread is a testament to the greatness of these forums. You say it wouldn't have made it past page one in the neverborn section. I say pity on the neverborn section!

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36 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Have you read through this thread and seen how completely all the tips offered where rejected without being tried? The original poster would likely have said the same on the neverborn forums when people said it could easily be handed. Despite that we carried on. Then there's the page or two of meandering discussion on what constitutes appropriate terrain with screenshots, a few jokes when everyone had given up on taking this seriously and now we are here, discussing the diacussion on the thread in the thread. This thread is a testament to the greatness of these forums. You say it wouldn't have made it past page one in the neverborn section. I say pity on the neverborn section!

Ludvig, please excuse my 'joke', it is aimed at the ease with which I think NB could deal with this sizzling problem and certainly not at this great thread of discussion; from which I might add I have learned a lot.

Wrong end of the stick mate, great thread and absolutely poignant for Guild players, and also I am certain it would get the same respect in NB forums.

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9 hours ago, Ceodoc said:

Ludvig, please excuse my 'joke', it is aimed at the ease with which I think NB could deal with this sizzling problem and certainly not at this great thread of discussion; from which I might add I have learned a lot.

Wrong end of the stick mate, great thread and absolutely poignant for Guild players, and also I am certain it would get the same respect in NB forums.

No, I apologize. Mine was also meant as a joke, it's just so hard to signal in text form. 

I do agree that neverborn would handle this list well. 

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14 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

But it's not always going to be an 8-10. Would you still cheat if you had to burn an 11+? Would you take the action if you knew you'ld have to gamble on B2C?

There's thirteen 11+ cards. There's twelve 8-10. And the remaining twenty seven cards aren't.

There are a lot of factors to consider, but the one thing I've found in gaming, is that randomness isn't smooth. So this engine might work awesome one round, and completely crap itself the next.

Which means devoting your Master's activation and an additional 8SS of minions, for something that could be awesome, and could stink, doesn't seem a sure thing. 

Well I would know what my hand was before i even start, so I know what I'm risking. I think if I had a poor hand (5 cards below the 8 and only 1 above it) I would probably go for the risk. The first time I draw those 3 cards, I'm having a good chance of at least drawing a card that will let m do it again, and if I don't I think I'd spend a master AP on a greater than 50% chance to draw 3 cards. (Worse case I'm in effect flipping 2 cards and hoping for an 8+ to draw 3, most of the time thats a worthwhile master AP unless I already have a better plan). 

 

11 hours ago, Ceodoc said:

Ludvig, please excuse my 'joke', it is aimed at the ease with which I think NB could deal with this sizzling problem and certainly not at this great thread of discussion; from which I might add I have learned a lot.

Wrong end of the stick mate, great thread and absolutely poignant for Guild players, and also I am certain it would get the same respect in NB forums.

How would Neverborn deal with it? 

As without thinking I would have said Guild was better to deal with it than Neverborn, due to their increased threat ranges. 

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14 minutes ago, Adran said:

How would Neverborn deal with it? 

As without thinking I would have said Guild was better to deal with it than Neverborn, due to their increased threat ranges. 

Collodi sniper spam while Collodi takes the first ap from the pigs to charge their own crew. Zoraida forcing the pigs to charge their own crew. Lilith sucking in the pigs to deal with them one at a time. Terrifying models and wp debuffs against crappy wp.

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20 minutes ago, Adran said:

Well I would know what my hand was before i even start, so I know what I'm risking. I think if I had a poor hand (5 cards below the 8 and only 1 above it) I would probably go for the risk. The first time I draw those 3 cards, I'm having a good chance of at least drawing a card that will let m do it again, and if I don't I think I'd spend a master AP on a greater than 50% chance to draw 3 cards. (Worse case I'm in effect flipping 2 cards and hoping for an 8+ to draw 3, most of the time thats a worthwhile master AP unless I already have a better plan). 

 

How would Neverborn deal with it? 

As without thinking I would have said Guild was better to deal with it than Neverborn, due to their increased threat ranges. 

I could imaganie obeying, swapping, blocking LoS with woods, shoving Collodi up their face,... - something like that?

Also, the pigs wp4 is a liability against Neverborn in general - a terrifying Pandora with Fears given Form and a not shitty hand probably forces him to discard a good chunk of his hand on simple duels or get paralyzed/die.

 

Just a few examples as a frequent NB opponent^^

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1 hour ago, Tris said:

I could imaganie obeying, swapping, blocking LoS with woods, shoving Collodi up their face,... - something like that?

Also, the pigs wp4 is a liability against Neverborn in general - a terrifying Pandora with Fears given Form and a not shitty hand probably forces him to discard a good chunk of his hand on simple duels or get paralyzed/die.

 

Just a few examples as a frequent NB opponent^^

Those are certainly options. I don't think I would be worried about being paralysed by Pandora on the critical turn, the pigs ought to have been able to use a high enough card to pass the horror duel, and I don't think Pandora does enough little damage to kill a pig before it gets to activate, and hopefully can set up an activation to end with eat your fill. (I'm also not sure she is likely to be near enough to them for them to worry about fears given form on the first activation, but its a while since I've played/faced her so may be missing a few tricks). 

I don't think there is a neverborn horror duel the pigs can't pass with a 12 or better, so I don't think its that high a hand drain (And even if you do paralyse them, a sensibly timed reactivate or 2 can still get them going twice). 

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Collodi sniper spam while Collodi takes the first ap from the pigs to charge their own crew. Zoraida forcing the pigs to charge their own crew. Lilith sucking in the pigs to deal with them one at a time. Terrifying models and wp debuffs against crappy wp.

Enough ranged damage may well work (why I would instinctively fear guild more), but this heads back to the board lay out and deployment. I also don't see collodi normally getting to target the Pigs on turn 1.If he does, then they are in some trouble, unless they are clever about it (If you are able to make the pig suffer from the set er off ability I don't think Collodi gets much choice about that AP use and can even be forced to declare the charge against himself. That may be tricky to do, but its certainly possible thanks to old major ruling out pigs as targets).

Snipers certainly can put out enough damage to cause the list problems, but not sure that it'll kill both pigs and if one survives to do this, it has a good chance of removing all those snipers. Makes for an extreme scissors paper stone game, and I think on the whole the pig list just edges it on most tables. But thats just a gut feeling with no actual experience of the match. 

And the Zoraida Obey is a huge risk for them, that she can pull off with almost no counter. But I think that if thats what you are facing you can minimise what the pigs can charge to things which can survive a couple of hits from a pig, and use your hand to try and prevent stampede. 

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Last time I  faced Pandora she had a resisted attack that just handed out paralyze on a ca 7 vs wp duel, no simple horror duels involved. Or did we play that wrong?

Graves showing Collodi the door while Collodi declares the built in push trigger is 9" of push for a single (non-Collodi) ap. That should let you threaten pretty deep into enemy territory. Or just use the totems as usual for pushes. 

If the pigs manage to move so they need to charge Collodi that still means Collodi is controlling those attacks on double positives so can just set the first charge up to miss and push away or let it hit to declare the trigger to charge again and purposefully miss the next model as well. Now the pig is ideally engaged and can't charge again this activation. 

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6 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Last time I  faced Pandora she had a resisted attack that just handed out paralyze on a ca 7 vs wp duel, no simple horror duels involved. Or did we play that wrong?

Graves showing Collodi the door while Collodi declares the built in push trigger is 9" of push for a single (non-Collodi) ap. That should let you threaten pretty deep into enemy territory.

Its one of Pandoras upgrades (voices) to add the trigger to self loathing and self harm if I remember right, but she then has to be in 3" to self loath (or to to self harm but thats on a 6), and it doesn't have the suit built in.  She can also get an attack to force horror duels, or remove immunities (the box opens).

So yes She can paralyse, but if you can hold off your hog whisperer until after she has been, then they can use the first reactivate to remove paralysis and the second to give the pigs 2 activations still 

That should get collodi close enough, although close enough to pull strings is potentially close enough to charge. But with run away home Collodi is probably pretty safe from Pig charges.

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My Pandora opponent liked to use that general woe upgrade where you just discard to add any suit to all duels for the rest of the activation so hitting the trigger shouldn't be that hard at least he has been very successfully paralyzing three of my models on every turn in several of our games, technically I guess you could not draw a single crow. 

Doesn't reactivate have some wording on you only being able to benefit from it once per turn? For some reason the reference on conditions in the app doesn't list reactivate.

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40 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

My Pandora opponent liked to use that general woe upgrade where you just discard to add any suit to all duels for the rest of the activation so hitting the trigger shouldn't be that hard at least he has been very successfully paralyzing three of my models on every turn in several of our games, technically I guess you could not draw a single crow. 

Doesn't reactivate have some wording on you only being able to benefit from it once per turn? For some reason the reference on conditions in the app doesn't list reactivate.

I was sure that they used to rule that re-activate and Paralyse cancelled each other out. Seems I'm either still thinking 1st edition or have just gone completely mad. They don't physically cancel each other out, so you can't apply 2 reactivates. Ok just the 1 activation per pig, and it may be risky to charge Pandora, so you have to hope you can decimate the enemy crew enough. 

I'd still probably try to make it drain Pandoras hand by making her cheat her good cards to paralyse, hoping that the overall hand makes up for the cost of her good cards

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