Your ideas how to play vs unstopable crew

[looka]

11 minutes ago, Adran said:

A few things. - Whilst I agree the list does look like it is not very activation dependent, there is a fair amount that is. You want the pigs to start in Majors Aura, you probably don't want to send them off before they have re-activate, the crier as a card cyler is pretty important as in the get you bro as card draw, because Pigs with an average hand are only doing 4-6 damage in  an activation before damage reduction. 

So whilst I can see that the ideal set of actions listed, is not completely required to power up the list, there is a fair amount that is needed. 

I would expect this list to be very scary if someone faced it for the first time without realising what it was going to do. I would expect it to be just Scary against an opponent that understands it. It is a very strong alpha strike list, but there are a reasonable range of counters, several of which have been mentioned here.

Having read about it here, I would still expect a player who understands it to be able to outdo a lot of my attempts to block it the first few games, but I would be very surprised if I was wiped out the first turn, as it is certainly capable of against an up-prepared player. 

But I also do believe you are committing the same error that you accuse others of.  If you don't think its vulnerable to a 1 turn alpha strike because its still quite back, then you haven't seen the same level of threat that I have. I've seen Sonnia light up models in their enemy deployment zone which can easily kill mosquitos (Not a huge risk ito this crew, but its still a risk) I've sent "re-activating" warpigs into enemy crews on the first turn because they didn't expect it (one thing not suggested here, but that may help is using a Mosquito as a stampede enabler, moving it up to a place where the pig charges it for its first AP, and able to set up its stampede trigger into someone else.)

I'm also not sure that the hitting power you have is going to be great against things like the peace keeper that combines hard to wound with armour. I really can't see a re0-activating war pig with positive flips to everything actually killing 1 (In the pigs ideal circumstance, it charges, gets 2 attacks, then stampeded to something easy to kil, and then charges back to the peace keeper, but I'm hard pressed to see those 7 attacks (You start activation 2 engaged with the peace keeper) doing more than 10 damage and that costs you quite a lot of your well crafted Hand to make it happen even that well. Granted that's a model that is one of the worst targets for you to hit, so you will try to avoid it, and you may well have the movement to do so, but every time your opponent puts this kind of block, you are losing some of the raw power. 

 

My conclusion is that this list will be devastating against an un-suspecting opponent. and against an expecting opponent, the list may do well, but there are certainly several ways that it can go wrong, and the list is set up for 1 good turn and relying on the enemy not being able to do anything in the rest of the game because your good turn crippled it. 

There may well be more depth to it, and I might be underestimating the power of the hand, but since 9 of the cards you draw are coming off you getting your bro, I think that is its weak point. If you "only" cycle 8 cards and draw 2 others, then you have a good hand, but not enough to consistently create the havoc you want, and I think that if your turn doesn't work, then you don't have the depth on a turn where you have no extra card draw or cycling to compete even with a badly damaged list. 

I think I give it more credit than others, but it is a one trick pony list. Its a very good trick, probably with the potential to be more devistating that a well placed Viks bomb, but it still relies on the 1 trick (of having a huge hand to send re-activating war pigs into the enemy crew  and consistently hitting and doing moderate or better damage). 

wow, I'll try to answer what I could translate)
1 -  You want the pigs to start in Majors Aura, you probably don't want to send them off before they have re-activate - 
it's not exactly true), I can do it and after the pigs are brought back into aura with the help of whisperer (the saddle on the major will allow me to do this after passing 10 and in the pulse 8 after this, from a fairly large distance, the pig will again find itself in the aura of the major and will receive reactivation)
2 - the crier as a card cyler is pretty important as in the get you bro as card draw - 
it's true but not quite true, 2 cards per stone, 2 cards with upgrade "do over" and the death of the crier will bring me 3 cards, this is enough given that the pigs will attack with +, But at full cycle it will be more comfortable
3 - I'm also not sure that the hitting power you have is going to be great against things like the peace keeper that combines hard to wound with armour - 
pigs can get ++, peacekeeper dies-verified) with 3 attack
4- There may well be more depth to it, and I might be underestimating the power of the hand, but since 9 of the cards you draw are coming off you getting your bro, I think that is its weak point. - 
Yes, you're right), but the pigs still remain models with + for everything, Markus is quite manageable and without 9 cards) than the pigs are worse?

the most dangerous thing in this roster is the recklessness of his player) which can allow to deliver a pig at 26 inches for 1 action of the pig itself) preserving +
this is very dangerous) especially if you consider that this is impossible)

[Lokibri]

12 hours ago, Rostislav said:

If she survives first charge.

Well, there is always the option of positioning her, so she cannot be charged. The big downside of pigs are their short melee range which is good for Abuela and she is very good at positioning! (Look at her abilities!).

So, considering Ht3 models, she should be able to have her aura safely around and should not die in 1 or even 2 charges from a warpig, which would have a hard time hitting her.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Platov said:

I'm not the author of this list. And, to tell the truth, i don't even know how vassal works, never tried it, and, to tell the truth, don't want to. I prefer real games, and I'm going to play one. Not to prove anything. I don't like the concept of "proving", or braging about how "I gonna 10-0" somebody. It's kinda presumptuously and dumb, no offence.

I never told that this list in ubeateble, I only told that most of people here don't understand, that it's much scarier than it looks on paper, i've tested it for 10+ times(for Guide-writing purposes, not noobstomping), with diffirent players(again, not newbies), and i won all 10+ games. I want to test it against Levi, because i have lost 3 of 4 games against that opponent, so obviously, he is better then me, and now im curious if he will find a way to counter this list.

You should really ask @looka, he's better player then me, and maybe he will agree to play vassal game.

I'm aware, me and Looka have actally been PM:ing about the list.

If it was in any way unclear I want to point out that haven't been calling this list bad or saying I would stomp it and I haven't called anyone a noobstomper. I just offered a few suggestions for trying to counter it but without anyone actually trying to play the game it it's sort of hard to continue the discussion because it just turns into a pointless shouting match. A semi-detailed match report would offer a good continuation to the discussion.

I would love to read battle reports of physical games as well. I was just imagining this list to be tried against some of the top ranked players in other countries and the plane ride will be more complicated than vassal. Vassal isn't nearly as fun as a normal game though, the good thing is that it allows you to play people who live far from you. Trying it against a player you know often beats you sounds like an equally good test. Of course a single game never really proves anything but having an actual match report as a basis for discussion is more fun.

 

No longer a direct response:

I would like to add something to the discussion on terrain. If any list can table an opponent turn 1 I think there was something wrong with the board design based on that happening alone. That is sort of how we have worked out how much terrain to use on our boards and how to place it where I play.

[Platov]

3 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I'm aware, me and Looka have actally been PM:ing about the list.

If it was in any way unclear I want to point out that haven't been calling this list bad or saying I would stomp it and I haven't called anyone a noobstomper. I just offered a few suggestions for trying to counter it but without anyone actually trying to play the game it it's sort of hard to continue the discussion because it just turns into a pointless shouting match. A semi-detailed match report would offer a good continuation to the discussion. 

I would love to read battle reports of physical games as well. I was just imagining this list to be tried against some of the top ranked players in other countries and the plane ride will be more complicated than vassal. Vassal isn't nearly as fun as a normal game though, the good thing is that it allows you to play people who live far from you. Trying it against a player you know often beats you sounds like an equally good test. Of course a single game never really proves anything but having an actual match report as a basis for discussion is more fun. 

 

No longer a direct response:

I would like to add something to the discussion on terrain. If any list can table an opponent turn 1 I think there was something wrong with the board design based on that happening alone. That is sort of how we have worked out how much terrain to use on our boards and how to place it where I play. 

I ment no offence, sorry if it souded like i'm accusing you. I'll take photos during game, and try to explain what was going on.

About terrain, well, there is other Somer list, that utilizes flight(iron skeeters), with same card draw, but with Burt and Franc, and Trixie. Like, 4 activations of quite evil beaters in a row(Burt+Franc with fast and reckless, end of turn 1 + star on turn 2, with companion, and cheating initiative). It can, sometimes, table opponent turn 1-2, and with flight terrain doesn't matter much.

[Tris]

Also @Ludvigs terrain question - could you guys put pictures of some of your tables up in the forum?

As several "solutions" revolve around proper positioning of stuff (models and flame walls mostly) some pictures could be very helpful to explain how others might approach playing against that list rather than us only concentrating on listbuilding which only gets you so far

[Ludvig]

@Tris

There was a question on terrain in the rules forum a while back when I tried to create a couple of sloppy paint images. I have a shitty old phone, it does not take pictures well. I could try to see if a few of my regulars could snap some photos. I don't suppose @Math Mathonwy took any pics of the tables he played in my last event?

The worst board was basically a desert city so the entire center line was a street but from the deployment zones there were two streets about 60mm wide on one player side and a single 60mm wide street on the other side for the other player. These streets had small debris that you couldn't push over but could climb past and claim cover for. The edges of the center line didn't have buildings but several forests so you would need to walk through about 8-10 inches of forest to get into the other forest and draw LoS to the opponents half of the table (much of it blocked by the huge buildings).

Making the streets so narrow and littered prevents Sonnia's flame walls from blocking them but she could block the ends. The small debris also meant that it was hard to place markers even when they were allowed near terrain because they would end up on different elevations and thus not be in btb (filthy resser emissary for example).

[Tris]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

There was a question on terrain in the rules forum a while back when I tried to create a couple of sloppy paint images. I have a shitty old phone, it does not take pictures well. I could try to see if a few of my regulars could snap some photos. I don't suppose @Math Mathonwy took any pics of the tables he played in my last event?

The worst board was basically a desert city so the entire center line was a street but from the deployment zones there were two streets about 60mm wide on one player side and a single 60mm wide street on the other side for the other player. The edges of the center line didn't have buildings but several forests so you would need to walk through about 8-10 inches of forest to get into the other forest and draw LoS to the opponents half of the table (much of it blocked by the huge buildings).

Ah, as useful as that response is (thank you) I didn`t want to tag you, just add the @ as a shortcut that I´m referring to your question 😛

 

I would like to see tables from @Platov, @Rostislav and @looka, if possible

[Ludvig]

No probs Tris. I find that terrain varies wildly between groups, that is often a big shock when playing in new places. I think it often influences what people consider to be the best thing to play because some lists are very terrain dependent. It often gets forgotten in tactics discussions.

[looka]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/svhsvsy2ks3td7p/AAAkAJpPUYfXer2WIc8EL7p6a?dl=0
 

this is my home table, and yes it is very difficult for this roster) but in tournaments I often meet more empty tables with a bunch of snipers that annoy me)

[Platov]

Ok, there you go. Tables from last week tournament in our meta.

 

[Rostislav]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ludvig]

Thanks @Platov! Those tables look extremely open to me.

@Rostislav thank you as well. Some of these look like ours. The one with the houses and fences I would probably throw in two or three forests and move the houses more towards the center to be more in the way when the crews get closer to each other.

[Platov]

Just now, Ludvig said:

Thanks @Platov! Those tables look extremely open to me.

Well, that's why there were alot of diffirent OP-lists in our meta. But people find how to counter any OP list, in some time. Card-draw Viks, Hans+2trappers, Changeling Gunline. Those lists dominate the tournaments, people talk about open tables, and nothing changes in years. So, i guess, that's how it is here, in Moscow.

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, Platov said:

Well, that's why there were alot of diffirent OP-lists in our meta. But people find how to counter any OP list, in some time. Card-draw Viks, Hans+2trappers, Changeling Gunline. Those lists dominate the tournaments, people talk about open tables, and nothing changes in years. So, i guess, that's how it is here, in Moscow.

Yeah, changing can be easier said than done. Our club pitched in money and bought a bunch of cheap western houses that filled up two boards nicely. I also borrow terrain from several clubs and friends private stashes to really cramp up my boards when I have bigger events. Ziterdies (definitely not spelled right, sorry Dirial) has super cheap trees and you can just flock a bunch of cork pads from IKEA to make forest bases really fast.

[Tris]

Hey guys, thank you very much for the quick response

 

I´m at work atm so don`t have much time but I the tournament tables look like they could use some more scatter terrain at least.

Also, something like the big "train station" building could be placed more centrally to force both players to play around it more, it`ll have virtually no influence at the game at the back of the table.

 

The (I guess) private tables don`t look that bad to me and some flame walls, def 8 or 9 models, stone pillars or disguised whatever could block the pigs charge lanes pretty effectively.

 

Some of it still depends on terrain declaration (the bushes for example, are you able to go through, see through?) and of course only hiding won`t do you much good in many scheme pools, but I think there are options to block the cahrge and counter attack

 

 

Edit:

you could also ask the TO beforehand and bring a box of your own terrain with you when you play?

some scatter and small buildings don`t take up too much space and should improve the gaming experience on these tables drastically^^

[looka]

1 minute ago, Tris said:

The (I guess) private tables don`t look that bad to me and some flame walls, def 8 or 9 models, stone pillars or disguised whatever could block the pigs charge lanes pretty effectively.

so on this table I do not use pigs)))))

[Ludvig]

Scatter terrain is the hardest to find and create in my experience. My boards are often a bit light on that.  

[Tris]

Just now, looka said:

so on this table I do not use pigs)))))

And I understand that, but I have to say that`s a bit of information that would`ve helped very much right from the start

 

So, Imo, the list is not the problem, it`s the tables - very much like Perdita used to dominate a lot of the early tournaments because open tables allowed you to just kill everything, with no place to hide - many players and TO´s adapted to that situation and so it changed

 

@Ludvig but there are many companies out there which produce crates and stuff like that, rocks and small walls are easily built, shouldn`t take much more than a weekend for several tables

[Platov]

But in the end, such terrain is the exact reason, why turn 1 alpha works, and why such threads are born.

Imo, Hog Whisperer is OP and will get cuddles quite soon, tho.

[Myyrä]

6 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Scatter terrain is the hardest to find and create in my experience. My boards are often a bit light on that.  

We like this stuff. It's affordable, durable, good looking and easy to transport and assemble. The same company also sells a wide range of other scatter terrain.

[Tris]

Just now, Platov said:

But in the end, such terrain is the exact reason, why turn 1 alpha works, and why such threads are born.

Imo, Hog Whisperer is OP and will get cuddles quite soon, tho.

Don`t think so tbh, but we`ll see

Personally I think that`s a problem that should be discussed with your TO`s as it`s very hard to counterplay an empty table - there are still options but there`s nothing special we could help here, I think everything has been said.

If these tables are the norm at your place you`ll always have problems with super alpha strikes, but that`s not the games fault

[Math Mathonwy]

There's a very delicate balance to terrain. I've seen quite a few tables where Sonnia/Rasputina with double walls would basically autowin. The table Ludvig mentioned from the Stockholm tournament would've been really horrid against a double wall list as you had to commit to an opening and it could then be blocked. Luckily I faced only Ironsides and Nico. The latter took great advantage from the narrow alleys which forced me to bunch up - two corpse explosions kinda lost me the game.

[Ludvig]

9 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

We like this stuff. It's affordable, durable, good looking and easy to transport and assemble. The same company also sells a wide range of other scatter terrain.

Big thanks! Looks like it's time to place a bulk order for scatter.

[daniello_s]

2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

There's a very delicate balance to terrain. I've seen quite a few tables where Sonnia/Rasputina with double walls would basically autowin. The table Ludvig mentioned from the Stockholm tournament would've been really horrid against a double wall list as you had to commit to an opening and it could then be blocked. Luckily I faced only Ironsides and Nico. The latter took great advantage from the narrow alleys which forced me to bunch up - two corpse explosions kinda lost me the game.

True, it is really hard to find this golden spot between table which is too open and completely over-burden with terrain. One puts in better spot shooting and heavily pushing crews and other anything which blocks with special markers and incorporeal stuff. Damn, this life is never easy...

[Rufess]

It seems that we have a new great topic to discuss in the general forum: What is a well balance map to all kind of crew?

I know there is already some similar threads in both general forum and pull my finger, however the pics were out of function now. So maybe it is a good time to build a new thread to discuss the map and terrain under current meta and GG2018.