Your ideas how to play vs unstopable crew

[Platov]

2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

McCabe or Justice with el mayor on them might be tough enough to get dirty with the pigs. It would require the guildie drawing a decent hand but with all the gremlin card draw the scales are looking very likely to get two at least.

 

If you take bowled over you are now base to base so should have a really tough time lining up a good charge.

I guess, you are right, but as i said, it's hard to explain in theory. Peackeeper can be blocked by a model behind him, so no push. Or war pig can push him, and end up between 2 of your models, it's quite situational, so i think we shouldn't talk much about it. The point of the topic is not the stampede, but how to counter this roster. Preferebly, with Guild master.

[Ludvig]

Sounds like more terrain is needed, a 50mm base is supposed to restrict movement.

Have you tried Perdita with Faster than you up? If they make ten charges that is ten free attacks. She could just push up to a friend, go defensive and put it up. Obeying the pigs to charge friendlies is also a fun option, make them kill their own crew instead and end up far back on the board. 

[Platov]

3 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Sounds like more terrain is needed, a 50mm base is supposed to restrict movement.

Have you tried Perdita with Faster than you up? If they make ten charges that is ten free attacks. 

Well, yep, i guess you are right. Terrain is a huge problem in our meta. Tables a quite empty.

[Scatterbrain]

2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

That's a really weird thing to do. If the game is a competiion then people can be expected to bring good lists. Asking for silk gloves seems like a casual game thing.

Not so the opponent gets a soft landing. I meant more that, if this player is so adept at making lists, surely he can get the most out of his crew in all sorts of circumstances. Relying on the One Great List doesn't seem to fit in the spirit of Malifaux, where lists are made after learning the opposing faction and seeing the scenery. Maybe this player is actually too skilled to need the one specific, almost-unbeatable cheese list in order to play a strong, competitive game?

[Rostislav]

2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Sounds like more terrain is needed, a 50mm base is supposed to restrict movement.

Have you tried Perdita with Faster than you up? If they make ten charges that is ten free attacks. 

So I think best pick to counter is 

1. Perdita and 3 riflemen

If someone tries to charge you - he will get +/- 8 damage. It will be enough to cripple and later to stop warpigs.

2. Nellie and 3 snipers to kill key models.

Aside from that - the chances to survive are extremelly low.
 

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, Rostislav said:

So I think best pick to counter is 

1. Perdita and 3 riflemen

If someone tries to charge you - he will get +/- 8 damage. It will be enough to cripple and later to stop warpigs.

2. Nellie and 3 snipers to kill key models.

Aside from that - the chances to survive are extremelly low.
 

The pigs heal from kills so riflemen wouldn't be that great because the first pig can just charge in and ends its activation after killing one of them to get back to full and then have an activation where the rifles are out of focus.

[Rostislav]

Just now, Ludvig said:

The pigs heal from kills so riflemen wouldn't be that great because the first pig can just charge in and ends its activation after killing one of them and then have an activation where the rifles are out of focus.

I know it, but other variant seams worse. Also pig gets 3 damage to get reactivate and has 9 wounds so possible we can even kill one. Possibly =)

[Ludvig]

8 minutes ago, Scatterbrain said:

Not so the opponent gets a soft landing. I meant more that, if this player is so adept at making lists, surely he can get the most out of his crew in all sorts of circumstances. Relying on the One Great List doesn't seem to fit in the spirit of Malifaux, where lists are made after learning the opposing faction and seeing the scenery. Maybe this player is actually too skilled to need the one specific, almost-unbeatable cheese list in order to play a strong, competitive game?

Most good tournament players go with fixed lists or something like 35-40ss always the same and just swapping a couple of models based on the board and pool.

I'm sure this player will move on when everyone is soundly beaten and try new things. It's still a good idea to try abd work out a solution since it could pop up all over the place when facing gremlins.

[Ludvig]

Sonnia would bring something nice against this and that is shutting down charge lanes will all her blocking terrain. 

Turn 2 the walls stay in place until you feel like seting a pig on fire and companioning into Samael. Of course reapplying the walls before the opponent goes since you will be ignoring LoS anyway.

[Ludvig]

What sort of pools is this list appearing in btw? Could you do a quick setup, maybe dig their graves for a single point and thrn call it a day? Killing usually doesn't yield VP, especially if you table someone turn 1 so you might win on 4 vp.

[Rostislav]

So the main idea of this list is that dead enemy crew don't achieve points.

As for terrain - we have different tables. On a terrain heavy table he will simply get other list. He has access to all Gremlin pool of models.

[Adran]

24 minutes ago, Platov said:

I guess, you are right, but as i said, it's hard to explain in theory. Peackeeper can be blocked by a model behind him, so no push. Or war pig can push him, and end up between 2 of your models, it's quite situational, so i think we shouldn't talk much about it. The point of the topic is not the stampede, but how to counter this roster. Preferebly, with Guild master.

I don't believe in building a list to counter a list. 

But a few suggestions on how to face this list. Firstly, if you ignore it, you are right it can draw a huge number of cards. But the greatest number of cards is from Sommer get your bro 3 times. And the list only contains 1 chance of a bayou gremlin. So killing that bayou gremlin is an easy way to cost the crew about half its card draw. 

Killing the crier early can also help restrict the draw, but this has the down side that you are releasing the bayou and if you can't kill both in  the activation, you are allowing the chance for the get your bros to work. 

Low amounts  terrain makes it much easier for the pigs to get the right positioning, so that is something that will effect this list quite a bit.

And I've played games where Sommer couldn't get a mask for do it like this despite 11+cards in the hand, which really hurt his summoning plan. But thats not really a good answer. 

40 minutes ago, Scatterbrain said:

At the risk of sounding really glib, maybe you could challenge your friend to compete without a cheesy list?

How do you define a cheesy list? And not playing it against friends only works if no one ever plays it anywhere. As soon as people are using it, your best solution is to face it and try and work out how to deal with it. 

[Ludvig]

10 minutes ago, Rostislav said:

So the main idea of this list is that dead enemy crew don't achieve points.

As for terrain - we have different tables. On a terrain heavy table he will simply get other list. He has access to all Gremlin pool of models.

How much terrain is on your lightly terrained tables? We never have less than four decent houses and two large forests with some scatter of about 50mm that you can't walk over around the center of the board and then something blocking so you can set up safely in the deployment zones and have your flank covered on one side. That's a little terrain for me. Our boards with a lot of terrain will only have alleys through the middle of the board where a single 50mm will fit but no one will be able to walk past it. The deployment zones can then be a bit lighter on terrain. We sometimes have houses that 50mm can't go into at all to provide safe spots for smaller models.

[Rostislav]

2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

How much terrain is on your lightly terrained tables? We never have less than four decent houses and two large forests with some scatter of about 50mm that you can't walk over around the center of the board and then something blocking so you can set up safely in the deployment zones and have your flank covered on one side. That's a little terrain for me. Our boards with a lot of terrain will only have alleys through the middle of the board where a single 50mm will fit but no one will be able to walk past it. The deployment zones can then be a bit lighter on terrain.

3-5 houses, 2-3 forest pieces , 2-3 additional blocking terrain pieces and some crates and fences. This is considered  a normal table.
 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

32 minutes ago, Scatterbrain said:

Relying on the One Great List doesn't seem to fit in the spirit of Malifaux, where lists are made after learning the opposing faction and seeing the scenery.

If the spirit of Malifaux is to make a list according to schemes and strats, then the One Great List policy is not player's but designers fault (and partially also Tournament Organizers, who IMO should exercise their power over the scene and organize more "different master for each round" events). I don't understand why do you blame the guy for playing the most competitive list he could create.

[Scatterbrain]

2 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

If the spirit of Malifaux is to make a list according to schemes and strats, then the One Great List policy is not player's but designers fault (and partially also Tournament Organizers, who IMO should exercise their power over the scene and organize more "different master for each round" events). I don't understand why do you blame the guy for playing the most competitive list he could create.

He's certainly clever for creating and perfecting the list. But if that's the only list he's playing, he's making himself a bit of a one-trick pony. 🤔 If I were his opponent, I'd be much more impressed to also see him win with Somer in a radically different configuration, as well as with other Gremlin masters. Otherwise it's kind of like repeatedly spamming a 3-button combo in Mortal Kombat until the other guy runs out of health. "Yay, you won... again... in almost the exact same way."🙄

[Tris]

1 hour ago, Platov said:

The point of the topic is not the stampede, but how to counter this roster. Preferebly, with Guild master.

The point of the topic is moot though as we can sit here all day long and talk about our best models, biggest hitters and sturdiest tanks but in a situation like that it`ll more often than not come down to how the specific list play out on the board - I think, as others have stated before, that it´s not that easy to get clear charge lanes with your rg1" pigs if you measure and move all models careful enough.

 

There`s also a lot of models with armor, htw, htk and soulstone use available and pigs can struggle to kill these, placement effects, slow and other fun conditions like no charge or whatnot aside.

I also think that a Guild list could alpha you first with say, a peacekeeper which might cost me my model but keeps your models tied up and might turn your stampede triggers into a liability as the pigs might charge your own models.

Additionally, I´m quite positive that most Guild beaters can manage to at least damage you severely which might not be such a great deal with eat you fill but again robs him of options and slows the list down.

 

So, I don`t think there`s "the" list to break that Gremlins list but rather a playstyle which is always hard to convey via forum posts - just don`t loose your heart when playing against it and for a start try to measure ranges and angles very thoroughly

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, Platov said:

Well, yep, i guess you are right. Terrain is a huge problem in our meta. Tables a quite empty.

I think a picture of your tables would be quite helpful here.  

[Haagrum]

Reading the plays, I'm thinking the better option is to kill the Hog Whisperer or the Skeeter before a second model activates. Use the lack of table cover to your advantage and snipe key targets. Nino would be ideal for this, Austringers might be viable as well. You could also set up a crossfire with Hans or a Freikorps Trapper.

Nino Ortega with Debt To The Guild and a suitable vantage point (using From the Shadows) should be able to frag one or the other of them on your first activation if you go for it. You only need to hit once on the Skeeter (Wds 3), but it's Df 7. The Hog Whisperer is Df 4 but has 7 Wds, so Nino's Critical Strike trigger will be... well, critical.

If they're removed ASAP, you won't have Reactivating War Pigs coming your way - you've made "Stik'm!" much harder to pull off if you kill the Skeeter (unless they've got 3+ mid-or-better Masks in hand pre-shenanigans, or 2+ Masks and activate Som'er out of order), and impossible if you kill the Hog Whisperer.

Don't know if it'll work, but the engine relies heavily on the Whisperer. Murder him before he activates and you're in a much better position.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

If the spirit of Malifaux is to make a list according to schemes and strats, then the One Great List policy is not player's but designers fault (and partially also Tournament Organizers, who IMO should exercise their power over the scene and organize more "different master for each round" events). I don't understand why do you blame the guy for playing the most competitive list he could create.

I always engineer my pools to try and create tricky situations for my players but if you go by normal gg 18 schemes I think the solution to kill almost everything and scheme against a few enemy models is unfortunately pretty good in almost any pool. It's the same with lure-traps which are usually extremely potent. Interestingly the "killy" strategy where you need to get the bloodied condition is probably the best strategy to pace the killing and can actually work against the killy crews if the player isn't careful. Stuff like ply heavily rewards killing almost everything and keeping a patsy near two of your models that can chain-activate. The lessened need to hang around the center has really upped the power of Nico and a few others. In future gg:s perhaps you should need to be out of your deployment zone to interact or something.

[4thstringer]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

That's a really weird thing to do. If the game is a competiion then people can be expected to bring good lists. Asking for silk gloves seems like a casual game thing.

 

2 hours ago, Scatterbrain said:

At the risk of sounding really glib, maybe you could challenge your friend to compete without a cheesy list?

I started a side conversation on this topic in the general forum, because I think it's interesting.  It's here:

 

I hope both of you will elaborate on that there.

[Haagrum]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Sonnia would bring something nice against this and that is shutting down charge lanes will all her blocking terrain. 

Turn 2 the walls stay in place until you feel like seting a pig on fire and companioning into Samael. Of course reapplying the walls before the opponent goes since you will be ignoring LoS anyway.

It's worth adding that Sonnia can probably get blasts (as well as Burning) on the piggies reasonably easily. With Cherufe's Parting Gift and Cherufe's Imprint on Sonnia, and a few Flame Walls (possibly with a Malifaux Child to spam them), you have a decent barrier to stall on turn 1 and a vicious turn 2 of shooting with Samael Hopkins chain-activating after Sonnia.

[wizuriel]

So in the spirit of Malifaux I'm going to assume you're not building a list to counter this (if my opponent declared Gremlins a first turn alpha strike with tanky heavy hitters is not what I would be expecting (fragil heavy hitters like a fast Francoic yes, but not warpigs)).

So the thing imo that really makes it scary is the card draw with the banjoista and Somer. From the crier he would still get a lot of cards, but needs to discard at least 1 and 2s and will want some masks in hand incase the skeeter dies or for the pigs alpha strike.

The hog whisperer is only DF4 and WD7, but Guild I don't think has much that can reliable get him in the opponents deployment zone by 2nd activation. 

The next target imo would be the bayou Gremlin between his activation and before Somers. After drunk and reckless the bayou will only have 2WD left at DF5. Perdita and Sonnia should both be able to do this. 

The hard part is really going be stopping this and surviving. 

 

If Sonnia is up enough to drop a flame wall she is close enough to be charged by a warpig and I don't think she will survive that. 

 

[Rostislav]

26 minutes ago, Haagrum said:

It's worth adding that Sonnia can probably get blasts (as well as Burning) on the piggies reasonably easily. With Cherufe's Parting Gift and Cherufe's Imprint on Sonnia, and a few Flame Walls (possibly with a Malifaux Child to spam them), you have a decent barrier to stall on turn 1 and a vicious turn 2 of shooting with Samael Hopkins chain-activating after Sonnia.

If you move forward then Gremlins don't move. You are at least 24 away from them on a standart deployment.

[Tris]

8 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

If Sonnia is up enough to drop a flame wall she is close enough to be charged by a warpig and I don't think she will survive that. 

 

But she can`t get charged if there are flame walls in front of her, can`t she? ^^