Our worst models

[tmod]

6 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

That's one of the things that really broke the toy, in fact. We lost our "strength in numbers" advantage, but our models didn't improve their crappy stats...now pretty much every faction has a way of fielding cheap, significant models.

 

Indeed, I 100% agree that most players after a game against Gremlins just "they're OP - need to be nerfed" instead of trying to counter them, mostly because they (luckily) still retain some pretty unique abilities (like Reckless, or Dumb Luck) and, as @Omenbringer says, when things go right can be pretty nasty (although when things go wrong they implode spectacularly!)

Perhaps the solution is in fact spreading a better culture of "practice with your faction"? After all, the same happens against, I don't know, Arcanists...I know I'm gonna have to face Sandeep at some point, rather than just crying "Sandeep is OP, needs a nerf" (which he does, by the way), I need to keep practicing to find ways to beat him...

This, so much this!! The faction identity thing is important; if gremlins' thing is cheap models they need to have cheaper models than most other factions. The other factions must then focus on how to play against it instead of wanting the exact same toy. If easy access to zombies is the resser identity, the rest must focus on how to work around it rather than wanting the exact same toy... I think more and more players feel "entitled" to have everything in their faction, or they always did but are more likely to complain it now for some reason (see my thread in Faction Discussion), and I think it's hurting the discourse of the game. To the degree Wyrd is unfluenced by this it hurts the game...

I think the entitlement culture us everywhere, but it hurts gremlins more, probably because of the swingy models.

[edopersichetti]

9 hours ago, tmod said:

This, so much this!! The faction identity thing is important; if gremlins' thing is cheap models they need to have cheaper models than most other factions. The other factions must then focus on how to play against it instead of wanting the exact same toy. If easy access to zombies is the resser identity, the rest must focus on how to work around it rather than wanting the exact same toy... I think more and more players feel "entitled" to have everything in their faction, or they always did but are more likely to complain it now for some reason (see my thread in Faction Discussion), and I think it's hurting the discourse of the game. To the degree Wyrd is unfluenced by this it hurts the game...

I think the entitlement culture us everywhere, but it hurts gremlins more, probably because of the swingy models.

Eh my friend unfortunately the "entitlement culture" is everywhere...it happened to giants like MtG, Warhammer, or World of Warcraft! It was a long time ago since I played WoW, but I still remember the day Blizzard decided to add paladins to horde and shamans to alliance because players kept whining and asking for those in their faction. You play Horde? Just accept you don't get paladins....
What about when GW decided to give a cannon (!!) to the Daemons of Chaos?? Soon enough, each faction had some sort of cannons/catapults, including, Demons, Undead etc. For me, it makes no sense at all, the game loses flavor and becomes less interesting - unfortunately it is almost inevitable and it probably makes sense from a commercial point of view. Miniature games are not non-profit, sadly...

So yeah, I feel Malifaux is slowly crawling in this direction, with factions filling gaps and slowly getting more and more uniform. The Guild now has scheme shenanigans (Nellie), Ten Thunders gained a summoner, Ressers now have ridiculous movement tricks to counter their proverbial slow movement (Kentauroi) and have a long-range shooter (Reva) etc...plus almost all factions now have access to cheap models. I'm afraid soon we'll see Neverborn get a proper healer, or elite armored Gremlins with Htw...those are the last few taboos left

I agree that, in this scenario, Gremlins were probably hurt the most since their traditional "gap" is represented by the crappy stats and the general fragility of the models, and none of that has been addressed. Instead, we're slowly getting further and further away from the Gremlin concept: did you notice that none of the newest models has Reckless, Dumb Luck, or anything else along the lines of "trade health for AP/damage"? It's perhaps not a coincidence that the only decent model we got recently (the Crier) does some of this (trade health for cards).

So yeah, as it has been said before...hope for the best, and expect the worst

[tmod]

4 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Eh my friend unfortunately the "entitlement culture" is everywhere...it happened to giants like MtG, Warhammer, or World of Warcraft! It was a long time ago since I played WoW, but I still remember the day Blizzard decided to add paladins to horde and shamans to alliance because players kept whining and asking for those in their faction. You play Horde? Just accept you don't get paladins....
What about when GW decided to give a cannon (!!) to the Daemons of Chaos?? Soon enough, each faction had some sort of cannons/catapults, including, Demons, Undead etc. For me, it makes no sense at all, the game loses flavor and becomes less interesting - unfortunately it is almost inevitable and it probably makes sense from a commercial point of view. Miniature games are not non-profit, sadly...

So yeah, I feel Malifaux is slowly crawling in this direction, with factions filling gaps and slowly getting more and more uniform. The Guild now has scheme shenanigans (Nellie), Ten Thunders gained a summoner, Ressers now have ridiculous movement tricks to counter their proverbial slow movement (Kentauroi) and have a long-range shooter (Reva) etc...plus almost all factions now have access to cheap models. I'm afraid soon we'll see Neverborn get a proper healer, or elite armored Gremlins with Htw...those are the last few taboos left

I agree that, in this scenario, Gremlins were probably hurt the most since their traditional "gap" is represented by the crappy stats and the general fragility of the models, and none of that has been addressed. Instead, we're slowly getting further and further away from the Gremlin concept: did you notice that none of the newest models has Reckless, Dumb Luck, or anything else along the lines of "trade health for AP/damage"? It's perhaps not a coincidence that the only decent model we got recently (the Crier) does some of this (trade health for cards).

So yeah, as it has been said before...hope for the best, and expect the worst

I think you're a little too pessimistic: warhammer did manage to keep canons away for chaoa for a pretty long time before they caved, so could probably have managed to avoid it... And Wyrd have been pretty strong on standing up to the entitlement culture previously, so there's still some hope! But must be getting harder to find design space to design new models that bring something new to the factions while maintaining faction identity as the model pool increases...

[Morgan Vening]

On 5/9/2018 at 9:02 AM, PolishSausage said:

well, dogs/guildguard/despMercs are all 3ss models that are WAAAY better than bayous just based on stats.

Whoa whoa whoa, let's not say something you can't take back.

While I do wish they'd given Guild Guard a tweak instead, where it wasn't just a straight point drop. Keep them at 4, and have them have something like the Desperate Merc's "Take this to my son" but for Guardsmen within 3" (And make Dashel's summon require a SoulStone so it's not used to farm them). So they only cost 3 if they die. But outside the +2D if paired, they are fairly bad, and were horrible for 4SS.

The Dogs without Luna are solid but it's hard to say they're way better. +1 Wk, +1Ml, but Insignificant unless paired, no ranged capability, Scent vs D&Reckless is at BEST a wash, and Bayou Two-Step and Squeel beats Companion by a country mile. With Luna, they're better, but you're arguably paying 4SS per model if you want to make the most of it, as you're spending 4SS on a model you have to hide, because Luna might as well have a huge bullseye on her head.

And Desperate Mercs vs Bayou, I can see people MAYBE saying they're equivalent, but I don't see it. Disguised is nice, and the +1 damage isn't nothing, but D&Reck and BT-S just don't make the comparison IMO. And especially not enough to say the Bayou is heavily outclassed.

I'm not saying Gremlin players don't have *many* legitimate gripes. And the argument that Gremlins should be the faction of cheap activations is a valid one. But I do think points should be points, and in the 3SS category, I still consider Bayou Gremlins the gold standard. 

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that GG18 favours durability more than the previous GGs and Bayou Gremlins are, even with Bayou Two-card and Squeel, IMO squishier than Desperate Mercs let alone Guild Guard. Bayou Gremlins are nicely versatile and independent and certainly worth their points, IMO, but I feel that the game has moved in ways which make me jealous of Guild Guard and Desperate Mercs and I'm not sure which ones I would pick if I had access to all three (well, and they had the relevant types for synergies) while before I felt that BGs were the undisputed kings of their price class.

[Ludvig]

All this talk about sucky gremlins kind of makes me want to play them with some weird sideways options.

@edopersichetti Guild have had scheme shenanigans in Lucius since way back. Nellie added more denial tactics, passing activations and an allround buffer plus the cheap mercs which mostly do insane damage. I've never seen her marker tricks as the big area of complaint.

[Morgan Vening]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that GG18 favours durability more than the previous GGs and Bayou Gremlins are, even with Bayou Two-card and Squeel, IMO squishier than Desperate Mercs let alone Guild Guard. Bayou Gremlins are nicely versatile and independent and certainly worth their points, IMO, but I feel that the game has moved in ways which make me jealous of Guild Guard and Desperate Mercs and I'm not sure which ones I would pick if I had access to all three (well, and they had the relevant types for synergies) while before I felt that BGs were the undisputed kings of their price class.

Not sure I'd agree that B2C and Squeel make the Bayou Gremlin much squishier than the Desperate Mercs, that outside Ht, have identical stat lines. Yes, Disguised helps a lot, but I think there's an argument that it's not straight better.

And your last sentence is kind of my point. IMO, at 3SS, no model SHOULD be significantly superior to any other, let alone models a full point higher. And that was my main point of disagreement. Of the three models listed, one requires either pairing or McCabe hiring Luna to be equivalent, one is arguably better if paired but of a kind when not, and one is arguably of the same level. And I'm fine with that (though again, Guild Guard should have lost something, or gained something and stayed at 4SS).

I don't have issue, and in fact prefer, that models of the same cost have different functionalities and quirks. But I still expect them all to have the same value, at least in relation to some frequently occuring conditions (ie, faster schemers are more valuable in scheme heavy pools, more durable schemers are more valuable in kill/survival heavy pools). And that's where I feel Bayou Gremlins had a significant advantage before the SS drop. It's not the aspect of the Gremlin faction I think needs fixing.

[daniello_s]

8 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Not sure I'd agree that B2C and Squeel make the Bayou Gremlin much squishier than the Desperate Mercs, that outside Ht, have identical stat lines. Yes, Disguised helps a lot, but I think there's an argument that it's not straight better.

Not being able to be charged is way better than Squeel which is suit dependent. B2C is always a huge gamble (unless your initial flip was really crappy). I'll invite you to play Gremlins a bit and you'll see how funny sometimes it is...

[Math Mathonwy]

16 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

IMO, at 3SS, no model SHOULD be significantly superior to any other, let alone models a full point higher.

There are, IMO, huge differences between how good a certain SS bracket is in different factions. Ressers have amazing mid-cost models while their more expensive ones have traditionally been a bit lackluster. Neverborn tend to have great stuff in the middle and high cost echelons while their cheap stuff is often a bit below par. Gremlins' 9+SS bracket is rather sad but our 5-7 and 2-3 used to be truly stellar. Now our 5-8 is great and our 2-3 is far less so, compared to others.

I always found those differences a part of faction identity but it has been muddied quite a bit lately (as have other parts of faction identity).

[daniello_s]

17 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

 Now our 5-8 is great and our 2-3 is far less so, compared to others.

I don't think we have 2SS models hire-able anyway (except Totems)😉

[PolishSausage]

we had stuffed pigs, but people got salty we had a unique model they did not have so... nerf! nerf! nerf!

[Math Mathonwy]

18 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

I don't think we have 2SS models hire-able anyway (except Totems)😉

Exactly - our non-existent 2SS hiring pool sucks!  

[daniello_s]

1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Exactly - our non-existent 2SS hiring pool sucks!  

🤣

[Haagrum]

On 5/11/2018 at 11:54 PM, PolishSausage said:

we had stuffed pigs, but people got salty we had a unique model they did not have so... nerf! nerf! nerf!

Stuffed Piglets got nerfed for the same reason that Malifaux Rats got nerfed, IMHO. Admittedly, there's no Pig Engine, but multiple 2SS activations that can actually do worthwhile stuff is a bit threatening.

If they were errata'd to say "Stuffed Piglets cost 1 less Soulstone to hire if your crew includes one or more Gremlin Taxidermists", I think they'd be worth taking. They really can't compete against Bayou Gremlins (unless you're a fan of the Pigapult).

[PolishSausage]

Yes and no.

When I compare models across faction people say "each faction is individual and in a bubble of its own balance"

so to say a 2ss model that is insignificant with bad stats is "unfair" to others.

In my opinion it was a key model for many gremlin lists/masters as to not have our DF4 move up the field too early and get shot off the table.

We were designed to be horde faction originally~ to have higher activation pool.

 

That claim has been severely shattered over the course of erratas and new books.

 

PS: If they were errata'd to say "Stuffed Piglets cost 1 less Soulstone to hire if your crew includes one or more Gremlin Taxidermists", I think they'd be worth taking. -I agree and we tested it this way. It made Tax'is more hirable and there were some fun synergies there.

[PolishSausage]

On 5/11/2018 at 2:44 AM, Morgan Vening said:

And Desperate Mercs vs Bayou, I can see people MAYBE saying they're equivalent, but I don't see it. Disguised is nice, and the +1 damage isn't nothing, but D&Reck and BT-S just don't make the comparison IMO. And especially not enough to say the Bayou is heavily outclassed.

Bayous - you should never, ever, ever reckless. taking 2 dmg is effectively allowing opponent to take a hit on you without attacking (weak of 2)

It also makes them 1 hit away from dead.

Bayous have negative triggers that they have to declare (random)

also have no melee attack to speak off.

Why squeel when you cannot be charged with disguised.

Bayou 2 is amazing but random, 

 

Desp mercs are effectively 2ss, if they take damage get paired on all attacks. Cannot be charged being top of the line defensive ability ( keep in hard cover and watch opponents squirm.

They also abuse I pay better to the point of being disgusting.

4 mercs +Hannah with I pay better is such a hard staple for outcasts it makes me cringe.

[Haagrum]

14 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

Yes and no.

When I compare models across faction people say "each faction is individual and in a bubble of its own balance"

so to say a 2ss model that is insignificant with bad stats is "unfair" to others.

I agree - it's more that people reacted to it without understanding why the exploding undead piggies weren't unreasonably priced at 2SS.

[tmod]

7 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Yes and no.

When I compare models across faction people say "each faction is individual and in a bubble of its own balance"

so to say a 2ss model that is insignificant with bad stats is "unfair" to others.

In my opinion it was a key model for many gremlin lists/masters as to not have our DF4 move up the field too early and get shot off the table.

We were designed to be horde faction originally~ to have higher activation pool.

 

That claim has been severely shattered over the course of erratas and new books.

 

PS: If they were errata'd to say "Stuffed Piglets cost 1 less Soulstone to hire if your crew includes one or more Gremlin Taxidermists", I think they'd be worth taking. -I agree and we tested it this way. It made Tax'is more hirable and there were some fun synergies there.

 

7 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Yes and no.

When I compare models across faction people say "each faction is individual and in a bubble of its own balance"

so to say a 2ss model that is insignificant with bad stats is "unfair" to others.

In my opinion it was a key model for many gremlin lists/masters as to not have our DF4 move up the field too early and get shot off the table.

We were designed to be horde faction originally~ to have higher activation pool.

 

That claim has been severely shattered over the course of erratas and new books.

 

PS: If they were errata'd to say "Stuffed Piglets cost 1 less Soulstone to hire if your crew includes one or more Gremlin Taxidermists", I think they'd be worth taking. -I agree and we tested it this way. It made Tax'is more hirable and there were some fun synergies there.

I think I agree with all of this. I understand the argument that no spamable model should cost 2ss, but personally I think something like the taxidermist fix should be enough, amd would preserve some of the horde feel to the faction. Also, that would avoid the collateral nerf to the pigapult. I also think the bayou gremlin got hit with a collateral nerf with the proliferation of 3ss minions in other factions. A decent minion at uniquely lowe price point was, along with a 2ss peon, the main factors establishing the horde element of the faction identity in my opinion. Loosing both unique elements hit the identity hard, even though Gremlins might still be competitive through other means and other builds...

7 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Bayous - you should never, ever, ever reckless. taking 2 dmg is effectively allowing opponent to take a hit on you without attacking (weak of 2)

It also makes them 1 hit away from dead.

Bayous have negative triggers that they have to declare (random)

also have no melee attack to speak off.

Why squeel when you cannot be charged with disguised.

Bayou 2 is amazing but random, 

 

Desp mercs are effectively 2ss, if they take damage get paired on all attacks. Cannot be charged being top of the line defensive ability ( keep in hard cover and watch opponents squirm.

They also abuse I pay better to the point of being disgusting.

4 mercs +Hannah with I pay better is such a hard staple for outcasts it makes me cringe.

Yeah, this is where you at least partially loose me. I agree that many exaggerate theor abilities; drunk & reckless is very strong, but very much weaker than a free ap. You can use it once per game, and that's great if it can score you a vp/kill off an important model. Similarly, Dumb Luck is amazing, but demands finesse, as one trigger will almost kill it. Cheap and powerful but random fit the faction profile perfectly in my book! For me Gremlins have probably the strongest non-totem 3ss drop in the game. Gremlins also provide better synergy, ie slop haulers can in some cases mitigate the self-damage.

I do however agree that Desp. Mercs and Guild Guard have become much closer, almost on par, and even if Bayous still hold a small edge, that's still a problem from a faction identity perspective. Gremlins' ability to outswarm anyone except dedicated out-activation crews have taken a severe blow, and that's a serious issue. There's no need to present dubious arguments about the immense power of other factions' models, or hyperbolic claims of Bayou Gremlins' uselessness. If they are a little stronger that still represent a significant relative powerloss for Gremlins overall...

[Mr Janje]

I said this then, i'll say it now...

Stuffed piglets should have "Slop for brains" ability 

Slop for Brains: This model may not activate whilst there are any other models without this ability yet to Activate


Its basically perma "Nobody likes me" condition

[tmod]

4 hours ago, Mr Janje said:

I said this then, i'll say it now...

Stuffed piglets should have "Slop for brains" ability 

Slop for Brains: This model may not activate whilst there are any other models without this ability yet to Activate


Its basically perma "Nobody likes me" condition

I actually think this would be a touch too much; gremlins pretty much always outactivating for 12ss of stuffed piglets was a problem; on the other side three for 6ss would probably be ok. Maybe they could have an ability causing them to be more expensive when hiring more than three? 2ss hiring cost, but all cost an additional 1ss if you hire 4 or more? Maybe even three or more? Then they'd be useful for an extra activation or two with leftover stones, but too expensive for the full out-activation package, yet still summonable, so a decent chance to see more than the limit (and maybe all six!) in some cases...

[Fetid Strumpet]

No, no models should be hirible for 2. Period. And I’m including current models that are 2, they should all get a cost increase.

My personal suggestion would have been to design a rule that had all models with the same name activate concurrently and share an AP pool, so that essentially you’d get 1 model in multiple bodies covering a good chunk of the board, but you wouldn’t get multiple activations and ap out of the deal. But you would get greater board presence, and it would be harder to remove your activation since all of them would have to die before that activation was lost. I’d be ok at 2 stones for that.

[PolishSausage]

hey, go away you non-gremlin player.

internal balance of faction should be left for us to balance out.  "No, no models should be hirible for 2"  is not a correct statement as all factions are different.

Or would you like me to take away your broken kentaroi ?

 

PS: Since your summoning engine Asura makes a model FOR FREE every turn, you shouldn't argue against 2ss models.

[Davie]

1 hour ago, PolishSausage said:

hey, go away you non-gremlin player.

internal balance of faction should be left for us to balance out.  "No, no models should be hirible for 2"  is not a correct statement as all factions are different.

Or would you like me to take away your broken kentaroi ?

 

PS: Since your summoning engine Asura makes a model FOR FREE every turn, you shouldn't argue against 2ss models.

I hope you mean this as a joyful banter :D
This thread is a total echo chamber where 3 to 6 guys constantly keep on repeating how bad gremlins get/got nerfed all the time.

What this thread actually lacks (for the most part) is some Input from other factions. I agree with @Fetid Strumpet in that SS2 Models are problematic regardless of their abilities

[Haagrum]

1 hour ago, Davie said:

What this thread actually lacks (for the most part) is some Input from other factions. I agree with @Fetid Strumpet in that SS2 Models are problematic regardless of their abilities

It's generally not an issue if they have a Rare X limit or are Totems (which have an inbuilt Rare 1, typically).

That's not an option for Stuffed Piglets as they come in a box with 6 models. A change to their Rare limit effectively makes at least some of a players' models unusable.

I agree that there's too much doom and gloom here, but Gremlins were meant to be the unreliable cheap-model horde faction with very little summoning. There is a genuine sense that they are losing, or have lost, that character - particularly where "engine" crews can outnumber them easily after turn 1.

I only play Brewmaster in Gremlins anyway, so it was never an issue for me, but I appreciate that the gripe has a valid underpinning.

[lusciousmccabe]

21 minutes ago, Haagrum said:

It's generally not an issue if they have a Rare X limit or are Totems (which have an inbuilt Rare 1, typically).

That's not an option for Stuffed Piglets as they come in a box with 6 models. A change to their Rare limit effectively makes at least some of a players' models unusable.

I was thinking rare value seemed like a possible solution. Might be annoying for people to have spare models, but considering the amount of minions that come in threes when you'd only ever use 1-2 of them it's not that big a deal.