Pounce and Pushes from an opposing model

[DTH]

Hi 

If my model (say, a Terror Tot) is pushed into base contact by an enemy model (say, the Judge's Stand For Judgemnt), does this trigger my model's Pounce? 

Pounce reads "When an enemy model ends a push or move within this model's engagement range, that is not part of a Walk or Charge action, this model may immediately ..." My opponent argued that it says "When an enemy model ends a push or move", so inferred that it required the enemy model to be pushed but its my argument that the syntax uses enemy model only so friendly models don't trigger pounce and in fact the ability triggers whenever the pouncing model ends a push action in engagement range, regardless of whether it was an enemy model or the pouncing model which was pushed. 

[Artiee]

Your opponent is correct.

[Ludvig]

The enemy model is not ending a push you are ending a push, no pounce. 

[Ludvig]

11 minutes ago, DTH said:

So it should read "When an enemy model moves by a push or move that (1) is not part of a Walk or Charge action; and (2) ends its movement within this model's engagement range; this model may immediately ..."

Well it could say that but that's not how the rules are worded. The conservation of space has led to some rules being ambiguous. f you push 0 you also haven't pushed (believe that last one is in the faq). The enemy model isn'tending a push effect,the enemy model caused a push effect to your model,the action might even have several effects that are differebt to the different models involved, one model gets damage and another gets pushed whilr the attacking model itself gets healed, all of those models haven't been affected by a pushing effect. The enemy model is just ending an action. 

It is exactly like thesame opposed duel is often a different kind of duel to the two models involved. One is doing a df duel and one is doing a ml duel for example even though it is a si gle opposed duel.

[DTH]

So it should read "When an enemy model moves by a push or move that (1) is not part of a Walk or Charge action; and (2) ends its movement within this model's engagement range; this model may immediately ..."

[DTH]

Yeah, I understand the necessity to conserve space  That's why I was re-wording it to be unambiguous. 

 

 

[Artiee]

Your thinking push as a Action..  It's a movement.    The action may have caused the movement, but the model is moving.    I don't see any ambiguous wording in ponce. 

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, DTH said:

Yeah, I understand the necessity to conserve space  That's why I was re-wording it to be unambiguous. 

 

 

It's already unambiguous. There's really no way to read it and be consistent with how you're interpreting it. "When an enemy model ends a push or move" has no possible way to mean what you argued for because you're just adding clauses onto it that don't exist.

[DTH]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

It's already unambiguous. There's really no way to read it and be consistent with how you're interpreting it. "When an enemy model ends a push or move" has no possible way to mean what you argued for because you're just adding clauses onto it that don't exist.

Well without meaning to be rude, I disagree that it's unambiguous. I've played enough games that such a wording could be ruled either way, which is why I came to the forums to query it rather than assume.

Anyway, thank you all for your time.

[solkan]

On 4/16/2018 at 4:23 PM, DTH said:

Well without meaning to be rude, I disagree that it's unambiguous. I've played enough games that such a wording could be ruled either way, which is why I came to the forums to query it rather than assume.

Anyway, thank you all for your time.

 Arguing over ambiguity won't get you anywhere, and that's not really the underlying point.

A game system ends up making a lot of choices when it settles on a formal language for its rules, and every game system ends up making slightly different choices.

In this edition of Malifaux the choices include:

• When a model is moved by a push (whether it's controlling/initiating the push, or some other model is), at the end of the push that model (and only that model) "ends a push".  The model moved, the world remained still.
• A model that suffers damage and during the resolution of that damage reduces the amount to 0, doesn't trigger any effects based on suffering damage.  Notably, Warmachine/Hordes has rules predicated on the opposite.
• A model that undergoes a move that ends with no physical displacement doesn't trigger effects.  In other words, a model pushed 0" doesn't trigger Pounce.

Those facts have nothing to do with ambiguity and everything to do with formalizing game mechanics.