Sandeep: Considerations for Errata

[WWHSD]

7 hours ago, LeperColony said:

An ability like Arcane Shield puts the question as to when the player should expose themselves to greater risk.  But ItW significantly reduces the consequences of that decision, which makes for a dynamic that is unattractive from a design standpoint.

Arcane Shield is a single point of reduction on a master that has a low enough Df value that he’s going to get hit by anything killy that wants to hit him.

Arcane Shield is a decent protection against things like Black Blood and the aura on Sorrows. For anything else it’s nice to have but it’s not a very strong defensive ability. Sandeep’s abilities make him a short to mid range master. He needs a bit more than Arcane Sheild and soulstones.

I don’t think that giving a model ItW lessens the impact of deciding when to activate and lose Arcane Shield any more than any other always on defensive ability does.

[LeperColony]

2 hours ago, WWHSD said:

Arcane Shield is a single point of reduction on a master that has a low enough Df value that he’s going to get hit by anything killy that wants to hit him.

Arcane Shield is a decent protection against things like Black Blood and the aura on Sorrows. For anything else it’s nice to have but it’s not a very strong defensive ability. Sandeep’s abilities make him a short to mid range master. He needs a bit more than Arcane Sheild and soulstones.

I don’t think that giving a model ItW lessens the impact of deciding when to activate and lose Arcane Shield any more than any other always on defensive ability does.

I probably shouldn't have said "significantly reduces," just reduces.  My point is as a matter of design, I don't like stacking permanent abilities along with conditional ones in that way, unless it's the core mechanic of the model.

[WWHSD]

Well, looks like Sandeep took a big hit by picking up a few things on that list.

 

Sandeep Desai

For two years now, Sandeep has proven to be incredibly versatile, to the point where he has become something of a staple at tournaments. By itself that's not a problem, but Sandeep's effectiveness has pushed other Arcanist masters out of the spotlight, so we'll be reigning him in a bit.

- Cache reduced to 2. This new Cache is more reflective of Sandeep's power level.

- Beacon Ca penalty increased to -2. Sandeep's Beacon is a powerful tool, but his Crew was using it a bit too efficiently. This should apply a bit more pressure onto Sandeep's Crew when it comes to hitting the TNs of borrowed Actions.

- Removed Impossible to Wound. This loss will make Sandeep considerably more fragile and, thus, make positioning more important for Sandeep and his removal easier for his opponent.

[retnab]

Far from a big hit.  ITW only matters if you're playing him aggressively (shame they didn't attach this or HtW to Moment of Weakness, but eh), and his Beacons now need 7's instead of 6's.  The cache is the biggest hit for sure, but he does so much that honestly I'm totally okay with this.

Plus, cool to see that 3 of the 4 most popularly voted options are what got used, so it's the changes the community wants!

[WWHSD]

6 minutes ago, retnab said:

Far from a big hit.  ITW only matters if you're playing him aggressively (shame they didn't attach this or HtW to Moment of Weakness, but eh), and his Beacons now need 7's instead of 6's.  The cache is the biggest hit for sure, but he does so much that honestly I'm totally okay with this.

Plus, cool to see that 3 of the 4 most popularly voted options are what got used, so it's the changes the community wants!

His Beacon actions are now Ca4 attacks which are going to be hard to land on most enemy models. There's now only a single card that can be used to Beacon the place or push before interacting that doesn't summon a Gamin.

I think people didn't bother trying to take out Sandeep because he had ItW. Now with a lower cache and no ItW, I'd expect that more people will try to eliminate him since he becomes pretty squishy after he actives.   

Both of the other changes make the hit to his cache an even bigger deal.

I don't think the combo of nerfs makes Sandeep unplayable but I think it's a larger nerf than a lot of people are giving it credit for being.



 

[Squirrelich]

My kneejerk on the nerf was pretty harsh. Since then I've come back a long ways. I'm looking forward to my upcoming League game that I plan to use him in.

[lusciousmccabe]

Removing tanking from the list of stuff he does really well seems like a reasonable move. Lower cache and beacon just tweak down his power level overall, so it'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Removing tanking from the list of stuff he does really well seems like a reasonable move. Lower cache and beacon just tweak down his power level overall, so it'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

Removing ItW and lowering his cache is pushing the play style of keeping Sandeep as far away from the action as you can. I would have been much happier with nerfs that forced Sandeep to stay tighter into the action and reduced his area of influence on the board. The abilities on his card and upgrades make him seem like he should be an active master that's hopping around in the middle of the fight rather than supporting his crew from range.

[KingCrow]

Well, if Wyrd was hoping to make more of the Arcanist masters see more play with these nerfs to Sandeep, I think it was a fail.  I agreed that Sandeep needed something done to him (I like the -2 to Beacon and now his combat upgrade will NEVER be used since he's so squishy) but honestly, we need buffs to a few of our masters to have them be relevant.  Sandeep is still good even if he's going to be playing in the backfield more.  I also think Amina will now become a permanent piece in Sandeep crews for more protection and possible adding soulstones back to the cache. 

[retnab]

7 hours ago, WWHSD said:

Removing ItW and lowering his cache is pushing the play style of keeping Sandeep as far away from the action as you can. I would have been much happier with nerfs that forced Sandeep to stay tighter into the action and reduced his area of influence on the board. The abilities on his card and upgrades make him seem like he should be an active master that's hopping around in the middle of the fight rather than supporting his crew from range.

I mean, he's a summoner with a good 10" non- attack, he's not exactly screaming "front line master" outside his Gada. He basically didn't have a weakness before.  Now he does, and hopefully that's enough to get tourney players back to playing other things instead of going 'Deep all day.

[WWHSD]

2 hours ago, retnab said:

I mean, he's a summoner with a good 10" non- attack, he's not exactly screaming "front line master" outside his Gada. He basically didn't have a weakness before.  Now he does, and hopefully that's enough to get tourney players back to playing other things instead of going 'Deep all day.

I’ve always looked at his larger base size, various Gada attacks, the three inch range on the flip Gamin, lack of  on Arcane Storm, general tankiness, his zero actions, and his ability that allows Academics to not randomize if they are shooting at targets near him as signs that he was meant to play up around the front tying things up and being a bit of a tarpit.

If nerfs were going to push him one way or the other I would have preferred if they made it harder to be successful when playing him in the back.

[azgadil]

On 7/2/2018 at 3:42 PM, KingCrow said:

Well, if Wyrd was hoping to make more of the Arcanist masters see more play with these nerfs to Sandeep, I think it was a fail.  I agreed that Sandeep needed something done to him (I like the -2 to Beacon and now his combat upgrade will NEVER be used since he's so squishy) but honestly, we need buffs to a few of our masters to have them be relevant.  Sandeep is still good even if he's going to be playing in the backfield more.  I also think Amina will now become a permanent piece in Sandeep crews for more protection and possible adding soulstones back to the cache. 

I just started playing SanDeep and I have a Short lived experience pre-nerf.

I look forward to others commenting more but from my perspective he is pretty strong. - Watching this thread. 

Obersvations Beacon becomes so difficult to cast that a player will only have a choice between Path to Salvation when you have a mask and As Your Deed when you don’t. Also when a Mage takes the action SanDeep still gets an AP and that seems okay by me.  

He’s fragile and I guess it’s likely he won’t be chosen in Eliminate the Leadership.  (Not only because of ItW but the cache). Also I quoted the above because basically I think his melee upgrades are near obsolete now. (And that’s okay maybe he was too versatile). 

[Morgan Vening]

1 hour ago, azgadil said:

I just started playing SanDeep and I have a Short lived experience pre-nerf.

I look forward to others commenting more but from my perspective he is pretty strong. - Watching this thread. 

Obersvations Beacon becomes so difficult to cast that a player will only have a choice between Path to Salvation when you have a mask and As Your Deed when you don’t. Also when a Mage takes the action SanDeep still gets an AP and that seems okay by me.  

 He’s fragile and I guess it’s likely he won’t be chosen in Eliminate the Leadership.  (Not only because of ItW but the cache). Also I quoted the above because basically I think his melee upgrades are near obsolete now. (And that’s okay maybe he was too versatile). 

I'm yet to play him (the guy painting him is taking longer than expected), but I think while the removal of I2W and Cache reduction may have been necessary for game balance, it does seem like it screws the play balance of him.

By that, I mean when I thought about what I'd do when I played him, I had several different concepts. Now, any that relied on putting him into any centralized combat goes out the window. Obviously, he's not a full on combat master that can go toe to toe with the Viks or Howard, but he looked like he could hold his own. But quasi armor and 12W means he's threatened by a lot of things. And I really liked the idea of going in there full Gada. 

I can still see him being a successful Master, but in the manner of a support only Master. And I'd probably rather he have remained a generalist, even if he wasn't as good at any specific aspect, by making his summoning or spellcasting a little worse. And either giving him one aspect of I2W (either H2W or can't cheat damage), or the ability to reapply Arcane Shield after he activates. Something to make him not be so fragile if he does get involved.

But c'est la vie.

[Tors]

Take the Steamfitter.

Amor 1 + Arcane Shielding + I2W + Prevention on 12 Wounds and reducing Sever to moderate was just plain silly and almost unkillable. 

I2W shouldn't be combined with damage reduction if you ask me.

[Adran]

Honestly how often are people finding their sandeep is being hit by an attack that is cheatable? 

Yes, you are down compared to before, so you need to be within 5 of the final total, so you need a little more thought, but in general I don't expect my masters to be suffering cheatable damage flips. 

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, Tors said:

Take the Steamfitter.

Amor 1 + Arcane Shielding + I2W + Prevention on 12 Wounds and reducing Sever to moderate was just plain silly and almost unkillable. 

I2W shouldn't be combined with damage reduction if you ask me.

Getting the scrap for that armor is costly if the you are counting on the Steamfitter to generate it. Sandeep and the Mages have enough things they are discarding for that that armor puts a ton of pressure on your hand.

[Morgan Vening]

10 minutes ago, Adran said:

Honestly how often are people finding their sandeep is being hit by an attack that is cheatable? 

Yes, you are down compared to before, so you need to be within 5 of the final total, so you need a little more thought, but in general I don't expect my masters to be suffering cheatable damage flips. 

Maybe it's the meta I'm in, but for anything that has better than a low stable damage spread (Weak/Weak+1/Weak+2), and where the disparity in Attack vs Df/Wp is no more than 1, Focus will get you most of the way there, most of the time. The to attack more often means they cheat first, and the to damage means anything by a tie is cheatable.

It doesn't always work, but I'd put the number of times when I've lost my Master, to it being from at least one significant cheated hit at around 40%. Not overwhelming but significant enough.

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Maybe it's the meta I'm in, but for anything that has better than a low stable damage spread (Weak/Weak+1/Weak+2), and where the disparity in Attack vs Df/Wp is no more than 1, Focus will get you most of the way there, most of the time. The to attack more often means they cheat first, and the to damage means anything by a tie is cheatable.

I'm rarely in a place they can focus and hit, but I think if they spend focus, that's prime stone time to counter it. 

I do agree that's the worst situation now itw has gone. 

[retnab]

I always found that turn 1 no matter if I have to pitch two severes for it I'm putting Armor on Sandeep.  As @Tors said, once you add in the Steamfitter's extra two layers of protection it made him basically unkillable outside the entire enemy crew gunning for him, and as a ranged summoner I really think him being also tanky was over the top.

[Franchute]

I played Sandeep yesterday in Ours against neverborn. He died because my opponent cheated a red joker for damage on turn 4. But that's the only mini I lost during the game. I have the impression he's still a strong master to be honest. But who knows, that's one game, in a small meta.

[azgadil]

Hmm.  First turn Sheninagans. Two Options  

Requires: Unaligned Sage and Tutelage  

Deep (0) Give a Lesson to SteamFitter. Deep (1) Action Through Inaction. (1) Summon. (2) Summon Banasuva. (If not enough Cards consider summon once and then move or cast a welding plate borrowed from your tutored Fitter)  

Activate SteamFitter Preferably drop a Crow. BONUS if not attacked grab the card you used to summon Banasuva.  

Discard (2) to drop a scrap marker. Draw a card from Tutelage. Cast with plus flips to trigger Welding on Deep adding armor with a crow. Repeat plate welding while you have plus flips. 

Requires: None (Better with Joss)  

Deep (1) Summon Metal Gamin. (1) Summon Banasuva. (1) Kill Metal Gamin.  Drop a Scrap Maker (or summon a wind Gamin activate Joss for the kill on a Wind Gamin. This give you a push to make up for lost movement).

Activate SteamFitter only requires a Crow for the armor  

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by azgadil
Thank you WWHSD. Summon a wind Gamin only if you have Joss.

[WWHSD]

10 minutes ago, azgadil said:

Hmm.  First turn Sheninagans. Two Options  

Requires: Unaligned Sage and Tutelage  

Deep (0) Give a Lesson to SteamFitter. Deep (1) Action Through Inaction. (1) Summon. (2) Summon Banasuva. (If not enough Cards consider summon once and then move or cast a welding plate borrowed from your tutored Fitter)  

Activate SteamFitter Preferably drop a Crow. BONUS if not attacked grab the card you used to summon Banasuva.  

Discard (2) to drop a scrap marker. Draw a card from Tutelage. Cast with plus flips to trigger Welding on Deep adding armor with a crow. Repeat plate welding while you have plus flips. 

Requires: None (Better with Joss)  

Deep (1) Summon Wind Gamin. (1) Summon Banasuva. (1) Kill Wind Gamin.  Drop a Scrap Maker (or activate Joss for the kill on a wind Gamin)  

Activate SteamFitter only requires a Criw for the armor  

 

Wind Gamin don’t normally drop scrap markers when they are killed. I think you want a Metal Gamin here.