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I think it's time to do something with Sandeep...


Milutki

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19 hours ago, KingCrow said:

It might not change the initial perception but when people see that those 0 action interacts aren't happening as often or the Sandeep player is needing to cheat more to get them to work, that is less cards in their hand and so less opportunities to cheat to make something else happen.  I can definitely see it making an impact on the game just like how the Rider was impacted when Wyrd increased the TN by two to summon anything. 

People are going to remember when a Sandeep crew scores points with that ability when they wouldn’t have otherwise.

When a Sandeep player is planning to use the action to do something meaningful, they will almost always have the card in hand to cheat. Their opponent isn’t going to be aware of all the times that they wanted to use the ability but chose not to because they didn’t have the card.

They aren’t going to notice that Sandeep players are cheating to use it just over half the time they use it instead of just under half.

Unless Sandeep gets nerfed out of the first teir of Arcanist masters people will still complain about the number of options that he gives his crew.

 

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1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

People are going to remember when a Sandeep crew scores points with that ability when they wouldn’t have otherwise.

When a Sandeep player is planning to use the action to do something meaningful, they will almost always have the card in hand to cheat. Their opponent isn’t going to be aware of all the times that they wanted to use the ability but chose not to because they didn’t have the card.

They aren’t going to notice that Sandeep players are cheating to use it just over half the time they use it instead of just under half.

Unless Sandeep gets nerfed out of the first teir of Arcanist masters people will still complain about the number of options that he gives his crew. 

 

Theres no first tier of Arcanist masters. Theres sandeep tier, hole then other masters (I think Marcus, Ironsides, Raspy maybe? thats beside the point).

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26 minutes ago, raderk said:

Theres no first tier of Arcanist masters. Theres sandeep tier, hole then other masters (I think Marcus, Ironsides, Raspy maybe? thats beside the point).

That’s pretty much what I had in mind as the first teir. What I was trying to express was that people that don’t like Sandeep’s flexibility aren’t going to notice anything until Sandeep is hanging out with Kaeris and Colette.

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On 4/7/2018 at 2:21 PM, raderk said:


Countering  ItW - having high low dmg. Arcane shield helps with that
Countering Arcane Shield - dealing high damage in single blows. ItW helps with that.

That alone makes sandeep extremly tanky. Added very high wound pool and here you go, tanky as hell.

If you want melee sandeep i think those defensiveness should be moved to the melee upgrade so his kit wouldnt be so overpowered when he does not want to be frontliner.

I never said that im attacking him with actions with min. 1, theres not many actions like that in current meta anyway. Armor + ItW is the same bad combination of defensive abilities. And keep in mind that with very cheap mages, myranda with her free activation and summoned gamins its not that hard to keep arcane shield long enough so it will work as armor in sandeeps case. Also he can use his free AP outside of his activation so another thing that is good for him and makes his kit too good.

If Beacon is broken and the combo of Impossible to Wound and Arcane Shield is broken why not just make Beacon an aura that activates at the start of Sandeep’s activation and lasts until the end of the turn? That would put some pressure on Sandeep to activate earlier in the turn.

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5 hours ago, WWHSD said:

If Beacon is broken and the combo of Impossible to Wound and Arcane Shield is broken why not just make Beacon an aura that activates at the start of Sandeep’s activation and lasts until the end of the turn? That would put some pressure on Sandeep to activate earlier in the turn.

Maybe it's -2 Ca if taken while he hasn't activated, and -1 if he has. Keeps options open but makes the choices harder.

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Hell, you could even make it a 1 ap action.  Perhaps, so as to make his melee build even partially viable, add a trigger something on his melee upgrade that allows him to take the 1 ap action.  Although I still don't think that would make the melee upgrade even worth it still. lol.  

This way he has to ALWAYS dedicate one ap to at least set up the Beacon ability and if he wants to get the most bang for his buck, he has to activate early to allow his crew to use his abilities or use his "free" AP to set it up.  This then can make the Sandeep player choose between setting up the Beacon ability or having the Effigy companion-ing into a summoned Banasuva, amongst doing other things of course.  I think that can be a huge decision for some Sandeep players. 

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1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Maybe it's -2 Ca if taken while he hasn't activated, and -1 if he has. Keeps options open but makes the choices harder.

Not personally to u more to the all of u. Try to play demo game there is no point in guessing. Otherwise it can end up that u all nerf Sandeep and then realize that none want's to play him anymore.

This nerf Sandeep hysteria starting look scary... Dont know how many of u play videogames but this all remind me Nerf Irelia theme from League of Legends. 

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53 minutes ago, Rillan said:

Otherwise it can end up that u all nerf Sandeep and then realize that none want's to play him anymore.

Honestly, that's pretty much how this always goes. Remember when Colette was the "god-tier Master"? The complaints about Sandeep are almost exactly on par with that, and they won't stop until Sandeep is in the same condition that Colette is now. Then those same complainants will move on to Nicodem, Nellie, Titania... whoever becomes the next bugbear.

That's why I want other Masters built up, not Sandeep torn down. Sandeep feels great to play! He just needs some viable competition. Colette feels awful, and nobody benefits from doing the same to Sandeep.

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You understand that Sandeep dominates the scene for a good year now, and we want anything that would tone him down? Nobodo wants to make him useless but with god tier master saying that any nerf would make him dirt is too much.

Or do you want to buff 43 masters, since besides nico and hamelin (maybe collodi) nobody stands up to dread mage sandeep.

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52 minutes ago, raderk said:

You understand that Sandeep dominates the scene for a good year now, and we want anything that would tone him down? Nobodo wants to make him useless but with god tier master saying that any nerf would make him dirt is too much.

Or do you want to buff 43 masters, since besides nico and hamelin (maybe collodi) nobody stands up to dread mage sandeep.

if this was true Sandeep would be Nr1 in every single tournament. 2017 years and first 2018 Q1results  says u are wrong. Yes, he is strong but not OP.

And yes, i would prefer to slightly buff other masters so they wont be at such a disadvantage compared to strong ones.

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51 minutes ago, raderk said:

You understand that Sandeep dominates the scene for a good year now, and we want anything that would tone him down? Nobodo wants to make him useless but with god tier master saying that any nerf would make him dirt is too much.

Or do you want to buff 43 masters, since besides nico and hamelin (maybe collodi) nobody stands up to dread mage sandeep.

That’s an exaggeration. Sandeep is good but he’s not some unbeatable god mode. He trivializes the part of the game where you build a crew to handle the encouter and the faction you are playing into. He allows players to focus on getting good with a small subset of models instead of having to spread their focus over 3 or 4 masters and all the models they’d want to hire.

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59 minutes ago, raderk said:

You understand that Sandeep dominates the scene for a good year now, and we want anything that would tone him down? Nobodo wants to make him useless but with god tier master saying that any nerf would make him dirt is too much.

I'm saying that calls to "tone him down" will not stop until he's useless. I've been playing this game for close to a decade and helping to manage this community for a good portion of that time - I have seen this happen. People hold onto their perceptions long after those perceptions have stopped being grounded in reality.

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Or do you want to buff 43 masters, since besides nico and hamelin (maybe collodi) nobody stands up to dread mage sandeep.

Frankly, I think the idea that Sandeep is the best Master in the game is unsupported. Every other Faction has multiple Masters that are easily on his level. His inter-factional balance is, in my opinion, not a problem - it's only within the Arcanist faction that he's an auto-pick. Hence, I think bringing the other Arcanists up to his level would be a good place to start.

That doesn't mean that there are no other Masters in other Factions that couldn't also use some attention. My fundamental position is that Sandeep would be a good baseline measure for how much a Master should impact the game - bringing other Masters up is better for gameplay than bringing Sandeep down, because plenty of Masters are boring and inflexible, and Sandeep is not (and I don't want to see him or any other Master become so).

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45 minutes ago, raderk said:

You understand that Sandeep dominates the scene for a good year now, and we want anything that would tone him down? Nobodo wants to make him useless but with god tier master saying that any nerf would make him dirt is too much.

Or do you want to buff 43 masters, since besides nico and hamelin (maybe collodi) nobody stands up to dread mage sandeep.

This is hyperbole. I think it's likely that Sandeep does a little too much a little too good, but a lot of players from one meta (Polish) getting together and deciding he's too good is NOT evidence of anything, really. We've seen large metas dominated by several masters during M2E, but very few have been consistently dominant across metas. Unbeatable Colette has been menioned, but the equally invinvicble Belle spam Seamus list from Chicago a few years back is also worth mentioning. This last one is clearly relevant: one highly competitive meta is dominated by one build, yet nowhere else is it dominating. Most people seemed to agree that Belles were probably a little too good/cheap, but the list didn't dominate elsewhere, and evetually faded away...

It could very well be that Sandeep could use an adjustment, but please stop saying "we all know", "he has been dominating", "he is unbeatable", etc, as this is pure hyperbole and NOT proven in any way. One meta reports a clear dominance, and that means it's worth having a look at; UK #2 says Sandeep is too good to consider other arcanists, that's certainly worth listening to.

Remember in early January when "everyone" agrees that Gremlins were "dead"? Then on January 27/28th they win UK Masters, probably the most prestigious tournament there is? If something is problematic it will show over time, and one group, even a big and competirive one, agreeing it must be overpowered is not evidence it actually is...

To be fair, Gremlins winning Masters doesn't really prove anything either, but it  hopefully exemplifies why hyperbole is toxic to a balanced discussion of what is to be done and why. Don't leap to conclusions guys, present evidence instead! 🙂

Full disclosure: I have Sandeep, but not played him yet. From a theoryfaux perspective he does seem strong, not because he's best in everything, but because he seems reasonably strong in unreasonably many things. And with a large cache to boot!  Both sides probably have some good points here, he is probably a little too good, and that's further emphasized by the other masters in Arcanists being a little weak. But team Nerf Deep has so far resorted to far more hyperbole and unproven claims, hence my words of caution goes mostly to you guys... In the end I hope the overall game balance keeps improving, and that includes a better in-faction balance in Arcanist. And probably a small toning down of Sandeep overall power level...

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29 minutes ago, tmod said:

This is hyperbole. I think it's likely that Sandeep does a little too much a little too good, but a lot of players from one meta (Polish) getting together and deciding he's too good is NOT evidence of anything, really. We've seen large metas dominated by several masters during M2E, but very few have been consistently dominant across metas. Unbeatable Colette has been menioned, but the equally invinvicble Belle spam Seamus list from Chicago a few years back is also worth mentioning. This last one is clearly relevant: one highly competitive meta is dominated by one build, yet nowhere else is it dominating. Most people seemed to agree that Belles were probably a little too good/cheap, but the list didn't dominate elsewhere, and evetually faded away...

It could very well be that Sandeep could use an adjustment, but please stop saying "we all know", "he has been dominating", "he is unbeatable", etc, as this is pure hyperbole and NOT proven in any way. One meta reports a clear dominance, and that means it's worth having a look at; UK #2 says Sandeep is too good to consider other arcanists, that's certainly worth listening to.

Remember in early January when "everyone" agrees that Gremlins were "dead"? Then on January 27/28th they win UK Masters, probably the most prestigious tournament there is? If something is problematic it will show over time, and one group, even a big and competirive one, agreeing it must be overpowered is not evidence it actually is...

To be fair, Gremlins winning Masters doesn't really prove anything either, but it  hopefully exemplifies why hyperbole is toxic to a balanced discussion of what is to be done and why. Don't leap to conclusions guys, present evidence instead! 🙂

Full disclosure: I have Sandeep, but not played him yet. From a theoryfaux perspective he does seem strong, not because he's best in everything, but because he seems reasonably strong in unreasonably many things. And with a large cache to boot!  Both sides probably have some good points here, he is probably a little too good, and that's further emphasized by the other masters in Arcanists being a little weak. But team Nerf Deep has so far resorted to far more hyperbole and unproven claims, hence my words of caution goes mostly to you guys... In the end I hope the overall game balance keeps improving, and that includes a better in-faction balance in Arcanist. And probably a small toning down of Sandeep overall power level...

i would love to see Colette's buff. Ive had so many players that i was showing the game for them and Colette was their master of choice, and they got dissapointed with her power level currently (and the fact that she works with her out of theme models like howard). As I said before Sandeep is very strong and toning him down to the Marcus/Toni level would improve overall game balance (hes #1 master in the game with his tankiness, overactivations, cheap thematic models and number of options) but also arcanists internal balance. With Colette and Mei Feng buffs (not sure about Colette but mei require something big for her) arcanist would then have really good internal balance.

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8 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Sounds like Hamelin to me but this is subject for other discussion😁

IMO Hamelin was better than Sandeep during last months of GG17, but right now peons are liability (Ply, Punish the weak) and cheap enforcers (like mages) can score new Claim Jump - Guarded Treasure very easy.

EDIT: (0) action to place, ITW, Arcane Shield and healing on attack (and potential armor from steamfitter) is bit more than no-charge aura, healing by sacrificing fmodel with 1 wound and potential HTK

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4 minutes ago, Cedar said:

IMO Hamelin was better than Sandeep during last months of GG17, but right now peons are liability (Ply, Punish the weak) and cheap enforcers (like mages) can score new Claim Jump - Guarded Treasure very easy.

Since you'll be heavily out-activated by these Peons who can nicely sit behind enemy lines your guys might have problems getting to them, not to mention surviving brutal assault from Hamelin's heavy hitters which can easily wait till you activate all your models before real onslaught happens.

Cheap enforcers scoring Guarded Treasure suffer similar problem. 

But as i said - leave this discussion when dust settles down on Sandeep's discussion ;)

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I think Sandeep has 2 problems -

Firstly he is a great generalist, which makes him a good choice for an all rounder. Whilst I don't believe he is the best at all things in the faction, he is close to the best at a lot of them, and does that with a relatively small crew composition. 

Secondly, He is "awkward" to play against. You can do things which make the use of Beacon harder to use, but your opponent still has to plan as if any of the models in your crew can use those abilities. 

 

You can resolve the first with changes to either Sandeep or other masters, and whilst Sandeep seems to currently be the most successful Arcanist, Arcanists aren't easily sweeping everything else aside. (I don't recall Arcanists being poor just before the release of Sandeep, so the other masters were competitive before hand). 

Solving the second whilst still in a way that is fun and interesting is probably a lot harder to do (As Kadeton says, Malifaux players perceptions don't seem to change very fast, even if the rules do). I enjoy challenges and thinking things through so I don't find this a problem, but others do. 

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1 hour ago, raderk said:

 As I said before Sandeep is very strong and toning him down to the Marcus/Toni level would improve overall game balance (hes #1 master in the game with his tankiness, overactivations, cheap thematic models and number of options) but also arcanists internal balance. 

This is excactly what I'm talking about. This is pure hyperbole. He IS NOT the #1 master in the game, you BELIEVE he is. You might be right of course (I personally think he should get a small adjustment), but there's not been a shred of evidence for this, and you present it as a fact. That is pure hyperbole, and it won't help promote a helpful discussion about what, if anything, should be done. Please stop!

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1 hour ago, tmod said:

This is excactly what I'm talking about. This is pure hyperbole. He IS NOT the #1 master in the game, you BELIEVE he is. You might be right of course (I personally think he should get a small adjustment), but there's not been a shred of evidence for this, and you present it as a fact. That is pure hyperbole, and it won't help promote a helpful discussion about what, if anything, should be done. Please stop!

Sandeep overshadowing every other master in AR and steamrolling many tournaments (Sandeep players always score high, even if they make mistakes). Polish NPL, Swedish NPL. I provided many examples as proof and thats why I and most of my meta thinks so. And I'm talking about strict tournament perspective, Sandeep defendants didnt even bother to explain if they are casual or powergamers.

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24 minutes ago, raderk said:

Sandeep overshadowing every other master in AR and steamrolling many tournaments (Sandeep players always score high, even if they make mistakes). Polish NPL, Swedish NPL. I provided many examples as proof and thats why I and most of my meta thinks so. And I'm talking about strict tournament perspective, Sandeep defendants didnt even bother to explain if they are casual or powergamers.

And when you actually look at more tournaments, you see that other masters and factions are regularly scoring higher, and that Sandeep is placing high because of the person playing Sandeep.

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54 minutes ago, raderk said:

Sandeep overshadowing every other master in AR and steamrolling many tournaments (Sandeep players always score high, even if they make mistakes). Polish NPL, Swedish NPL. I provided many examples as proof and thats why I and most of my meta thinks so. And I'm talking about strict tournament perspective, Sandeep defendants didnt even bother to explain if they are casual or powergamers.

Why does it matter how I place? Am I incapable of analyzing data and coming to valid conclusions because I’m not in the top 10% of players in my country?

I have no idea how you place but from your responses in this thread and others I don’t have the highest opinion of your understanding of how this game works. However, I’ve still been trying to engage with you respectfullyand haven’t suggested that you should bow out of the conversation because I don’t feel that you are qualified to discuss it.

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I dont want to insult you. I just believe that players who do not strive for maxed out lists with effort, who bring only the most overpowered models and who always do their best playing in as competetive as possible envioroment have their perspective warped and they are not qualified to speak about balance. Its harsh, but you will never know if somethings OP and somethings not if you dont max out your game and play against equally maxed out things. I understand that being powergamer isnt the right way to enjoy malifaux (there isnt right way to enjoy malifaux anyway. enjoying malifaux is the way), i just think that only maximum effort players can see if somethings up for nerf or not.

I dont mean to disrespect you, I  just think that balance affects mostly competetive players, and they see it more clearly that casual players who plays for fun of playing the game.

I appreciate your tone, its sometimes hard for me to sound nicely with my bad english which i apologize for (not my native language).

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