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I think it's time to do something with Sandeep...


Milutki

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3 minutes ago, raderk said:

Its still progress isnt it? I'm afraid we will never hit that golden balance with all masters being competetive and each one offering few different playstyles. We should focus on what we have now, and now we have sandeep trouble.

Sandeep, Nico, Zipp, Dreamer, Jack Daw, Hamelin.... OK today they nerf Sandeep tommorow u will demand nerfing others... U just can't nerf everyone it's too hard. It's better and easier to give those who can't match those strong masters something comepetable so they choose either u go your way or try to prevent opponent to do something. Most of masters can't do anything to prevent top tier doing their job. 

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14 minutes ago, necroon said:

I legitimately don't follow and would legitimately like to. But  "whining" would be fine. 

Your location says "LocationNew England". I read that as "Location England". In the UK, "whinge" tends to be used instead of "whine" when "whine" is referring to complaining and the word "whine" usually refers to a noise. I figured there might have been some connotation that "bitching" had in the UK that it doesn't have in my neck of the woods.

Someone from the UK feel free to correct me. This is all just based on what I've picked up from context in conversations with coworkers and reading and watching things made by people that learned English on the other side of the Atlantic.   

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You completly ignore my posts?
Only gamebreaking overpowered masters in this game are Sandeep and Nicodem.
Buffing weaker master might result in another misaki monster. Its hard to buff something without breaking it since its not tested out well enough by top players.
After sandeep i will be posting about Nicodem. Because two of them offer very little counterplay and forgive way to many mistakes.

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Just now, WWHSD said:

Your location says "LocationNew England". I read that as "Location England". In the UK, "whinge" tends to be used instead of "whine" when "whine" is referring to complaining and the word "whine" usually refers to a noise. 

Someone from the UK feel free to correct me. This is all just based on what I've picked up from context speaking with coworker and reading and watching things made by people that learned English on the other side of the Atlantic.   

Ooooooooh okay. Now I follow. Thanks for explaining. 

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Just now, raderk said:

You completly ignore my posts?
Only gamebreaking overpowered masters in this game are Sandeep and Nicodem.
Buffing weaker master might result in another misaki monster. Its hard to buff something without breaking it since its not tested out well enough by top players.
After sandeep i will be posting about Nicodem. Because two of them offer very little counterplay and forgive way to many mistakes.

I'm not ignoring u, it's more like u ignore fact that if u nerf one, then it comes to another and no matter how many masters u nerf there anyway will be someone stronger than others. And book 4-5 shows that with time they will come stronger and stronger. While giving an option to disturb top tier their playstyle can be a key. Or what u once saw Misaki and now going be forever afraid of any changes? 

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Dude could you really stop derailing? Theres two masters who are so overpowered that both of them breaks the game. Sandeep and Nicodem. Thats why I think they deserve a nerf, mostly Sandeep cause hes more urgent problem. And you derail this topic as much as you can with claims about Sonnia, with claims about other masters, with claims what will i do after. As I said many times, only trouble is those two, they break competetive games. If you want to buff weaker masters you'd have to buff 42 masters (everyone except those two). And that could easliy backfire.

Do I think weaker masters deserve a buff? yes, Mei feng, Colette, Jack Daw and Parker deserves some love. But Medicore and good like Dreamer, Ulix, Marcus does not.

I support the initiative to nerf all of the best masters in the game as well - Collodi, Zipp, Lilith, Hamelin, Shenlong. But they are not as gamebreaking as Sandeep and thats why i focus about that him being nerfed.

I strongly advice to make a thread about your claims since it would gather more attention, this topic is more about Sandeep issue. Derailing isnt the way my friend :)

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OK let's compare Kaeris/Collet and Sandeep. 

Sandeep in a single Activation summons 3 gamins, none of two mentioned above masters can kill all of them, u are very lucky if u kill 2 of them. That's already in Sandeeps favor cause he wins in Activations. Nerf this? OK nerfed. 

Sandeep changes his upgrades to bruiser playstyle so his Gada or what the name... comes with 3/4/5 damage he rushes in u, kills, summons BanaSuva it Activates and does lots of damage. U cry it's Op so it's gets Nerfed. 

OK Sandeep changes his upgrades and plays more like a ranged CA damage dealer + support and scheme while his crew via Beacon still wrecked u. Nerf Beacon? OK Nerfed. 

Sandeep doesn't care on upgrades doesn't pick any but he still has decent sustain, can heal and damage. Want to nerf something more? 

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2 hours ago, Lakshman said:

Sandeep and the models commonly used with him have a very versatile toolbox (summoning, actions outside activation, pushes and places, card draws, defensive abilities, + to attack flips) with few weaknesses. On top of that, because in a typical Sandeep list there are multiple models that can borrow his actions, you can't really stop that by eliminating a particular model - if you kill one, most of the time another model will use beacon.

At the moment, when playing against Sandeep, it's definitely not only player skill that decides who comes out on top - I keep seeing games where Sandeep player would, by their own admission, make plenty of mistakes and still win even though their opponent gave their best performance. Don't get me wrong - Sandeep is not unbeatable and requires considerable skill to be used effectively. Still, at the moment, a Sandeep crew in capable hands has no hard counters and a great edge over most other crews in the game and in most scheme pools, and I can see no other master that would get this kind of advantage in comparable number of matchups and scenarios.

Just because the opponent gave their best performance doesn't mean they also didn't make mistakes. Hell I can't remember the last time I played a game without making mistakes here and there, some minor some major, and still pull out a win. As for not having a hard counter, not a lot of crews have hard counters, so I'm not sure why that's relevant. Sure, he doesn't really have any bad match ups, but neither do a good handful of masters. Sandeep is just a strong generalist in a faction of hyper-specialists and weaker generalists.

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I mentioned this before but it seemed to have been lost in the heat. 

As a Sandeep player, I think an easy nerf to Sandeep would be to add a :ToS-Range: to his Arcane Storm.  This then restricts it from being used in melee, randomizes into Melee, and allows the benefit of cover which then either requires AP for focusing or proper positioning for the Gamin with the buffing upgrade.  

Maybe also increase the TN's for his base card abilities by 2.  This would then be on par with other abilities like the Rider's summoning.  The Sandeep plauer would have to decide on using those 8's for summoning or allowing other friendly models to get the Beacon abilities to work. These nerfs would still keep him competitive but make his decisions harder as to how to use his cards.  

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7 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

I mentioned this before but it seemed to have been lost in the heat. 

As a Sandeep player, I think an easy nerf to Sandeep would be to add a :ToS-Range: to his Arcane Storm.  This then restricts it from being used in melee, randomizes into Melee, and allows the benefit of cover which then either requires AP for focusing or proper positioning for the Gamin with the buffing upgrade.  

Maybe also increase the TN's for his base card abilities by 2.  This would then be on par with other abilities like the Rider's summoning.  The Sandeep plauer would have to decide on using those 8's for summoning or allowing other friendly models to get the Beacon abilities to work. These nerfs would still keep him competitive but make his decisions harder as to how to use his cards.  

If you want to require a higher card for the casts, change the penalty for using the actions through Beacon instead of raising the TN. Sandeep needing a 7+  to use his own abilities is kind of crappy.

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2 hours ago, WWHSD said:

If you want to require a higher card for the casts, change the penalty for using the actions through Beacon instead of raising the TN. Sandeep needing a 7+  to use his own abilities is kind of crappy.

Would you agree that at least putting a :ToS-Range: on his Arcane Storm action would help tone him down a bit?  I had a game the other night where I had a hand full of high rams and I managed to knock Leviticus off the board before he activated and severely hurt a beater.  If they had benefited from cover, it would've been a different story I think (although yes, I could've just summoned the buffing Gamin and not had to worry about cover but that in itself requires an AP and probably card/stone to spend).

I honestly don't think that needing a 7+ to make his actions work would be too terrible.  The interact is essentially giving him and other models a free AP to interact and placing within 6" as a zero is immensely strong as well.  This places more strain on his control hand than before and he is already hurting when it comes to using his cards with summoning and what-not.  Perhaps maybe raising the TN by one would be better than two but I could see this stopping people from complaining about him as much. 

In my opinion, he would still strong but putting more emphasis on how the players control hand gets played would mean that he requires more skill to manage properly.

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58 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

Would you agree that at least putting a :ToS-Range: on his Arcane Storm action would help tone him down a bit?  I had a game the other night where I had a hand full of high rams and I managed to knock Leviticus off the board before he activated and severely hurt a beater.  If they had benefited from cover, it would've been a different story I think (although yes, I could've just summoned the buffing Gamin and not had to worry about cover but that in itself requires an AP and probably card/stone to spend).

I honestly don't think that needing a 7+ to make his actions work would be too terrible.  The interact is essentially giving him and other models a free AP to interact and placing within 6" as a zero is immensely strong as well.  This places more strain on his control hand than before and he is already hurting when it comes to using his cards with summoning and what-not.  Perhaps maybe raising the TN by one would be better than two but I could see this stopping people from complaining about him as much. 

In my opinion, he would still strong but putting more emphasis on how the players control hand gets played would mean that he requires more skill to manage properly.

I think smacking a :ranged on Arcane Storm would have a significant impact. I doubt that much beyond that would need to be done for people to notice a difference playing him and playing against him. 

I suspect that bumping up the TN  by 2 for Sandeep and everyone in his crew to use his actions on top of that would probably put him right around where Kaeris and Colette are hanging out.

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9 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I think smacking a :ranged on Arcane Storm would have a significant impact. I doubt that much beyond that would need to be done for people to notice a difference playing him and playing against him. 

I suspect that bumping up the TN  by 2 for Sandeep and everyone in his crew to use his actions on top of that would probably put him right around where Kaeris and Colette are hanging out.

Aye, adding the :ToS-Range: would drastically change how Sandeep and those that use his ability through Beacon would act but would slightly decrease the effectiveness of the ability. Plus, it would allow the opponent to more thoroughly strategize against the Sandeep player as that is one of the main complaints about him.  

I had just mentioned bumping the TN of his abilities by two (although I think maybe just one at this point) as it might help because people would still complain how hard it is play against him since he is a generalist master and is still really good with his abilities.  

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1 hour ago, KingCrow said:

I had just mentioned bumping the TN of his abilities by two (although I think maybe just one at this point) as it might help because people would still complain how hard it is play against him since he is a generalist master and is still really good with his abilities.  

Bumping the TNs wouldn’t change that perception. He and his crew would still have the same breadth of options. Opponents are still going to need to play like the Sandeep player has enough 7s or 8s to pull everything off.  

The games where the Sandeep crew they played against didn’t make a few TNs isn’t going to stick in anyone’s memory. Sandeep haters are still going to see interacts on zero actions, places, pushes, models without ranged attacks using Arcane Storm and complain that it’s too complicated to guess what a Sandeep crew is going to do.

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It might not change the initial perception but when people see that those 0 action interacts aren't happening as often or the Sandeep player is needing to cheat more to get them to work, that is less cards in their hand and so less opportunities to cheat to make something else happen.  I can definitely see it making an impact on the game just like how the Rider was impacted when Wyrd increased the TN by two to summon anything.  

Yes, Sandeep is more complicated than most masters but it's just like playing vs any master that has access to lots of abilities.  Just like Lilith who can swap models around the board or all the other masters that have all sorts of abilities.  Being able to react to these plethora of abilities is what separates good players vs the not-so-good.  But just a few cuddles such as I mentioned previously would be more than enough to hopefully calm down most of the Sandeep hate.  He would still remain very viable but would at least allow some counterplay to the opponent. 

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Its hard to pick one thing to nerf, sandeeps kit is so flexible than i would rather see a bunch of little cuddles rather than one big

rather than giving projectile to arcane storm i would  make it 2/3/4 (trigger is huge for 245 dmg and that way its still viable for minions who want to shoot and projectile limits them, so sandeep crew still has options, just no that great)

i would like to see a little cuddle to the gamin upgrade which gives + to the attack flips. Its just generic emissar conflux hidden as upgrade and its HUGE. making it work only on gamins (banasuva) would be better than oxfordian mages furious casting with positives)
 

theres also two things that should be slightly touched - changing free ap from tomes to masks so it wouldnt be nobrainer gaining that action from mages, and sandeeps survivability. Making him 10 Wd and removing ItW would make him much easier to kill and with that the 12 inches range for borrowing actions would actually make sense, right now as long as he outactivates he can be in the middle of everything and survive everything thrown at him. Theres a lot of cuddles i proposed, but since none of them is very significant it would make sandeep just more cautions when hes playing and less forgiving for mistakes while his main kit would be still preserved and he would still remain as viable master on competetive level.

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19 minutes ago, raderk said:

Making him 10 Wd and removing ItW would make him much easier to kill ...

That nerf by itself would probably be enough to make Sandeep a niche pick for Arcanist players. It also make his lackluster melee focused Limited upgrade even crappier.

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9 minutes ago, raderk said:

Nobody use that upgrade anyway. And compare sandeep to any master thats considered tanky - i can assure you that ItW and arcane shield are two abilites that should never met on one master card.

How is the combo of Impossible to Wound and Arcane Shield any worse than Impossible to Wound and reducing the damage from Peons and Minions by 2 and damage from Henchmen and Enforcers by one on a Master that has a huge potential for healing built in?

10 Wds with only Arcane Shield as a defense is pretty squishy for a Master. 

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Not for a master whos whole kit resolves about being in back. And while Titania has indeed better defence than sandeep (keep in mind awesome healing from scheme markers) its also a limited upgrade. So Titania has to leave her offence (shes left with two attacks, and none of them is good, there medicore) to get great defence. Sandeep has it on his card, no SS or upgrade slot considered. And sandeeps kit is much better than titania anyway.

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34 minutes ago, raderk said:

Nobody use that upgrade anyway. And compare sandeep to any master thats considered tanky - i can assure you that ItW and arcane shield are two abilites that should never met on one master card.

How is arcane shield+ItW such a horrible combination that should never exist? Why are you attacking a master with a min 1 model anyways? Hell on a Master it's strictly worse than Armor because if you have to activate them early, which is definitely not uncommon, you just lost your damage reduction. The only thing arcane shield is really good against is black blood.

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20 minutes ago, raderk said:

Also - youre comparing master whos kit resolves about being 8-12 inches behind his crew and support to the frontline/defence themed one. If sandeep does not outright loses (and he doesn't) theres something wrong my friend.

Sandeep can operate behind his crew but I wouldn’t say his kit revolves around that. 

He’s got enough tankiness play up front, his upgrade that lets Academics not randomize when shooting into combat requires them to be targetting models close to him, his place allows him to bounce around a crowded frontline or over it to engage backline support models, he has one melee focused Limited upgrade, and his other Limited either give his melee attack a good damage track or the ability to Paralyze. His ranged attack not having a  :rangedseems like it’s because the intention was that he’ll be hopping into the mix. 

I’d say his kit is aimed at him bouncing around the scrum and doing what needs to be done and it just happens to also work from the backline providing support. If he was intended to be 8-12 inches behind his crew I’d figure that they would have given him range on Arcane Storm greater than 10 inches so he could attack the same targets that the models he is supporting are. He also has relatively few active support abilities to do anything useful with that far behind the action.

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Countering  ItW - having high low dmg. Arcane shield helps with that
Countering Arcane Shield - dealing high damage in single blows. ItW helps with that.

That alone makes sandeep extremly tanky. Added very high wound pool and here you go, tanky as hell.

If you want melee sandeep i think those defensiveness should be moved to the melee upgrade so his kit wouldnt be so overpowered when he does not want to be frontliner.

I never said that im attacking him with actions with min. 1, theres not many actions like that in current meta anyway. Armor + ItW is the same bad combination of defensive abilities. And keep in mind that with very cheap mages, myranda with her free activation and summoned gamins its not that hard to keep arcane shield long enough so it will work as armor in sandeeps case. Also he can use his free AP outside of his activation so another thing that is good for him and makes his kit too good.

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