How to deal with Sandeep

[Ludvig]

@TeddyBear

Seems I messed up the link but here is your answer.

https://giphy.com/gifs/funny-reaction-everyone-kAgcVV3X8ynug

 

[Angelshard]

@Ludvig to be fair Leon was definitely op and needed a nerf.

Regarding sandeep.

Colloddi with a beckoner is a potential 8 lures per turn, lure in a model and kill it, next turn rinse and repeat. Use mysterious effigy to give your crew a 3" push and suddenly he'll either have to get close or his can only hit one of your models once. Have stitched use their card gamble on his low wp models and you'll drain his hand fast.

Or take titania with royal indignation, audience and glory. Have emissary give her armour 1 and place a terrain marker next to you, then place his models in it and laugh as you force them to attack you while you shrug off their attacks.

Also you can hire in Taylor and use welcome to malifaux to remove the Gamin that he summons.

 

[TeddyBear]

16 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

@Ludvig to be fair Leon was definitely op and needed a nerf. 

Great movie...

[Passenty]

20 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

Stop please with these unecessary complaints! There are 7 topics on "How is strong Sandeep, nerfing sandeep .."..people try to give you some advices! Tangle shadow is the best attack of Lilith, like "lightning dance" of Yan lo..probably you and the others that complain about sandeep, don't know how to use their neverborns well. (tangle shadow on pigapult?? if anything, on one cheaper piece that can engage pigapult..)

What happen on nekima after one furious casting? What did you want? An immortal nekima? i like this game because there are pros and cons, for every factions!

Apart that if nekima charges Sandeep, after oxfordian mages can't casting well on her because they are engaged.. (unless sandeep have unaligned sage and also use the sight beyond...) 

Ok, probably you don't kill sandeep with nekima..but at least you start to to eat his resources! Also i want remember on every Lilith players that tey have (1) Wicked Vines, a very strong and undervauled attack action.. i'm just saying that there are 4 dmgs on a pushed model...and leave it at that.

and then, i've already written in the other 15 threads on sandeep..sandeep is a master that needs a lot of cards, (to discard for oxfordans's furious casting, suit for Tn, for extra action and other)

Never thought about a nb list with some pieces that consumes opponent resources?

Already know how this ends.. like previous (leveticus double focus, papa loco, francisco, wind gamin, gremlins..) someone complains and then they will be nerfed..

But after sandeep, who is next? Nellie? Nicodem? Hamelin? Who? It makes me smile..😭

 

 

I need to learn to play with neverborn better, surely reading this forum will help with this.

Iam actually complaing about quality of advice in this thread not sandeep. Because whenever there are problematic matchups everyone is suggesting lilith which is very misleading as i doubt they ever saw the problem on the tabletop. I think collodi and pandora are better options against arc.

If your opponents has 3 models which cost 15ss total and each of them can neutralize your 13-15ss nekima in singel activation it means nekima is not too good against sandeep, is she? As for eating resources Iam sure you know that tangleshadow+trying to keep nekima alive eats your resources as well- not sure why everyone forgets that  she burns through your cash real fast as everything hits her. For me playing lilith+nekima into deep is very risky but iam open for discussion if someone has valid tactic  (not something like we have so far: swap in nekima and let her die before her activation on first turn).

Iam suprised about the engagement argument which a lot of people seem to bring up. Engagement dosent do anything for furious casting mage. He target you, then he randomize, If he hits his model he pushes it away with his trigger and second and third attack hits you normally (so slow and push away), if he randomize into you he pushes you out of engagement with the first hit and then shoots you twice. Cover is usually not an issue because of the + gamin.

I'll try again to spam vicked wines against deep. When I tried it first time the problem was Sandeep crew has a lot of pushes and arcane shield (so vines were more 2-3 damage). What do you try to root against deep?

[TeddyBear]

21 minutes ago, Passenty said:

Iam actually complaing about quality of advice in this thread not sandeep. Because whenever there are problematic matchups everyone is suggesting lilith which is very misleading as i doubt they ever saw the problem on the tabletop. I think collodi and pandora are better options against arc.

Unfortunately, via internet, and without an idea of terrain, schemes/strategies, and lists.. it's difficult give advices which are perfect for every situation.. personally i suggested you Lilith, because (as far as pandora and collodi are scariest to face) Lilith seems to me, the most versatile nb master. Also with his Woods with one or two cyclops, may cause difficulties to most opponents. 

 

1 hour ago, Passenty said:

Iam suprised about the engagement argument which a lot of people seem to bring up. Engagement dosent do anything for furious casting mage. He target you, then he randomize, If he hits his model he pushes it away with his trigger and second and third attack hits you normally (so slow and push away), if he randomize into you he pushes you out of engagement with the first hit and then shoots you twice. Cover is usually not an issue because of the + gamin.

i don't have at hand the cards..but the push of oxfordian is not 2"? if yes, model is still engaged with nekima if she charges in cob or 1" for bb..but again i'd rather use cyclops.

without consider marcenaries models, and without schemes/strategies terrain idea.. i would try a list like this:

- Lilith 6ss

backon malifaux

the land consumes

on wing of darkness

- Primordial magic

- Cyclops

- Doppleganger

- Serena Bowman

- Mr. graves

- Bloodwretch

- Changeling 

- Changeling

Graves/Dopple/for pushes,  Dopple/wretches/serena/primordial: drawing engine, Lilith backon and cyclops to negate los, serena dopple and 2 changeling for interact actions, and also with their manipulative and "always comes around" abilities to try to drain oppo resouces.. serena + lilith/graves  for attack action via bb models, the land cosumes to create  hazardous terrain  for make it difficult opponent moves

9 models seems to me a good number of activations

 

[Ludvig]

@Passenty

My group uses a lot of terrain so if Lilith places forests well that could block one of maybe two firing lanes that allow the mages to focus fire. The gamin applying the buffs is an excellent target to place in some godawful spot on the other side of a house where it can't support the crew and that essenually blocks Sandeep from using that buff since he can't summon it again until it's dead.

That being said I posted Collodi and lure tips in the other general Sandep hate thread, so many threads on him now that I get confused.

[Adran]

4 hours ago, Passenty said:

Iam suprised about the engagement argument which a lot of people seem to bring up. Engagement dosent do anything for furious casting mage. He target you, then he randomize, If he hits his model he pushes it away with his trigger and second and third attack hits you normally (so slow and push away), if he randomize into you he pushes you out of engagement with the first hit and then shoots you twice. Cover is usually not an issue because of the + gamin.

I thought they were saying you could engage the mage, then it can't furious cast. (well it can., but it can't use its (1) ap CA spell whilst engaged because it has a so in effect it can;t do anything to stop nekima.). 

 

 

[Ludvig]

They can elemental strike if you placed close enough. Df 5 and black blood vs probably ca 6 2/4/5. She can probably stone it away if they get the kill trigger.

[WWHSD]

7 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

Unfortunately, via internet, and without an idea of terrain, schemes/strategies, and lists.. it's difficult give advices which are perfect for every situation.. personally i suggested you Lilith, because (as far as pandora and collodi are scariest to face) Lilith seems to me, the most versatile nb master.

 

Another thing that can be frustrating about these sorts of discussions is the assumption that the opponent always has the optimal circumstances. In the case of Sandeep, the Mages are always within 3 inches and line of sight of the + flip Gamin and 2 other Academics, able to Beacon abilities from Sandeep, have the cards needed to meet TNs, have plenty of open sight lines that allow them to constantly Furious Cast models off the table, and have an M&SU Henchman in LoS to power Student Loans.

It doesn't seem like these perfect situations happen in the other direction. Terrain always puts the other side at a disadvantage, the gods of fate conspire to leave them with very few usable cards in their hand, range and LoS become significant hurdles, and they never have initiative or activation advantage. 

This isn't specific to Sandeep. It's just an observation about how threads that are giving playing advice quickly turn useless when they are dealing with something as broad as "How do I beat crew X with faction Y".

  

[santaclaws01]

10 hours ago, Passenty said:

I need to learn to play with neverborn better, surely reading this forum will help with this.

Iam actually complaing about quality of advice in this thread not sandeep. Because whenever there are problematic matchups everyone is suggesting lilith which is very misleading as i doubt they ever saw the problem on the tabletop. I think collodi and pandora are better options against arc.

If your opponents has 3 models which cost 15ss total and each of them can neutralize your 13-15ss nekima in singel activation it means nekima is not too good against sandeep, is she? As for eating resources Iam sure you know that tangleshadow+trying to keep nekima alive eats your resources as well- not sure why everyone forgets that  she burns through your cash real fast as everything hits her. For me playing lilith+nekima into deep is very risky but iam open for discussion if someone has valid tactic  (not something like we have so far: swap in nekima and let her die before her activation on first turn).

Iam suprised about the engagement argument which a lot of people seem to bring up. Engagement dosent do anything for furious casting mage. He target you, then he randomize, If he hits his model he pushes it away with his trigger and second and third attack hits you normally (so slow and push away), if he randomize into you he pushes you out of engagement with the first hit and then shoots you twice. Cover is usually not an issue because of the + gamin.

I'll try again to spam vicked wines against deep. When I tried it first time the problem was Sandeep crew has a lot of pushes and arcane shield (so vines were more 2-3 damage). What do you try to root against deep?

Why are you not just swapping out the gamin that would be giving a ? It's already in a central spot for where you want Nekima to be. And since it's a 3" aura on the model, Nekima being twice its size as well as having a 3" engagement range is going to be engaging everyone it would be buffing+some. How is Nekima dying before she even gets to activate? What is happening in 1 activation that kills her? If you take Nekima you should already be prepared to throw a some extra stones her way regardless, so I'm not sure how this is supposedly a new thing to have to worry about when running her against Sandeep.

[Passenty]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Why are you not just swapping out the gamin that would be giving a ? It's already in a central spot for where you want Nekima to be. And since it's a 3" aura on the model, Nekima being twice its size as well as having a 3" engagement range is going to be engaging everyone it would be buffing+some. How is Nekima dying before she even gets to activate? What is happening in 1 activation that kills her? If you take Nekima you should already be prepared to throw a some extra stones her way regardless, so I'm not sure how this is supposedly a new thing to have to worry about when running her against Sandeep.

She is not dying in one activation - just getting slowed and then pushed away so she does nothing, she dies later after eating all your stones

[retnab]

I think what the others are getting at is that if you have the Mages engaged, the only one who can do anything besides their piddly (0) attack is the one with the Blood Ward.  If you kill that one, the others can barely do a thing in combat and certainly can't Slow or Push you away (since both are triggers on the 1 and that has a ).

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Passenty said:

She is not dying in one activation - just getting slowed and then pushed away so she does nothing, she dies later after eating all your stones

So you mean I get to trade a few stones for basically my opponents entire turn? Sounds good to me. I'll just be having the rest of my crew do stuff while the Sandeep player is using all of their AP on Nekima.

Also, you said she gets swapped in and dies before her first activation on her first turn. Considering Lilith and Nekima are going to be the neverborn players last 2 activations, that means Nekima is somehow dying in 1 activation.

[Passenty]

7 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

So you mean I get to trade a few stones for basically my opponents entire turn? Sounds good to me. I'll just be having the rest of my crew do stuff while the Sandeep player is using all of their AP on Nekima.

Also, you said she gets swapped in and dies before her first activation on her first turn. Considering Lilith and Nekima are going to be the neverborn players last 2 activations, that means Nekima is somehow dying in 1 activation.

I mean you trade a few stones for some of his ap, and its getting downhill pretty fast from there.

Deep will surely outactivate Lilith+nekima crew so he will have more then one model to attack nekima with.

[santaclaws01]

11 hours ago, Passenty said:

I mean you trade a few stones for some of his ap, and its getting downhill pretty fast from there.

Deep will surely outactivate Lilith+nekima crew so he will have more then one model to attack nekima with.

Not before Nekima can activate. And definitely not before she can kill some models and pulse out at least 2 tn 14 horror duels with a second activation, because between Iggy and Doppleganger in neverborn you should never have to worry about the first activation of a turn.

[Passenty]

12 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Not before Nekima can activate. And definitely not before she can kill some models and pulse out at least 2 tn 14 horror duels with a second activation, because between Iggy and Doppleganger in neverborn you should never have to worry about the first activation of a turn.

I do understand you ever take one horror  duel? And what models is she killing? She needs all 3 swings to kill a singel mage

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, Passenty said:

I do understand you ever take one horror  duel? And what models is she killing? She needs all 3 swings to kill a singel mage

The two horror duels are on separate turns. Even if Nekima gets a negative on the damage flip there is someting close to a 45% chance of flipping better than weak and she might even get to a straight flip on the raw duel. The Sandeep player will have summoned stuff and messed around so expecting the arcanists to 13 everything isn't exactly fair, it's very likely that double rush of magics and wings of darkness has given the neverborn a hand advantage.

[Passenty]

4 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The two horror duels are on separate turns. Even if Nekima gets a negative on the damage flip there is someting close to a 45% chance of flipping better than weak and she might even get to a straight flip on the raw duel. The Sandeep player will have summoned stuff and messed around so expecting the arcanists to 13 everything isn't exactly fair, it's very likely that double rush of magics and wings of darkness has given the neverborn a hand advantage.

So hitting moderates on minus is now somehow a viable tactic? You are risking 13-14ss model for that, I would call this quite a gamble.

So my argumet here for the whole time is that your not getting 3 swings with nekima due to slow from mages, If you speak about 2 turns of attacks my argument is that nekima needs all 3 hits to kill unactivated mage (bb does nothing against the shield and unless you hit moderate but its still not the great trade), You have x2 rush and wings which is nice, the problem is he has just more cards between arcane res,  biting myranda with raptor, IE from myranda and + from gamin and cerber. IE is of course a one time boost but its often enough to assasinate either nekima or lilith, so its not like lilith player can be so bold with everything he does. I have played this match up fair amount against competent players and you may trust me that lilith rans out of cards quicker then sandeep. And for whole time Iam not speaking about any perfect storm of events just normal stuff like a guy with 11 cards is hitting def 5 model with ca6 with plus, knows how to use his triggers, is not walking his models into nekima bb+swing range, is not using his face cards to summon gamins, knows tangle shadows has 5ca and most of his models are wp6 so keeps a high card for that attack. Meanwhile everyone insists that nekima will drain a lot of resources from Sandeep and thats a good way to play the match up, which is in my opinion a bad way to play it out - Nekima will drain more of your own resources and she will maybe kill a model that costs less then her. 

[Rillan]

@Passenty

In terms of 2 hits there is pretty high chance u get one moderate on it. And if Nekima inflicts 9 damage then mage goes dead cause 5 + 2 (reduction from upgrade) + 2 (reduction from arcane shield) - 9 = 0 and even if u hit 2 weak u can Blood for Blood and still kill it and then move away. There is no need in 3 hits.

Btw Nekima can fly and hide behind terrain so if mages wreck u i would say u did something wrong.

 

So whatever mage player does u kill his model. And if he cheats/discards card for reduction its even bigger win. 

[Angelshard]

@Passenty

How is the mage unactivated if he's slowed nekima?

Either you have three attacks or you have an activated mage. Both should very much result in one dead mage.

But fair enough, if nekima doesn't work for you that is fine. 

Have you tried a lure tactic where you hold back and lure his models into a death zone one by one?

Have you considered Serena bowman in an ultra aggressive list?

Titania should work quite well against sandeep too.

Aeslin will prevent your models from being pushed by him and can make mages and sandeep cry if she activates her aura near them.

If your enemy is static you could bring widow weaver to lower their wp.

It seems like your biggest issue is the three mages using furious casting next to the boost Gamin. 

There's been a lot of suggestions on how to break that up. Heck a single stitched could give you moving cover to negate their plus flip.

[Rillan]

25 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

But fair enough, if nekima doesn't work for you that is fine. 

It more looks he is complaining just to complain. It doesn't look he played Nekima even once.

[Passenty]

2 hours ago, Rillan said:

@Passenty

In terms of 2 hits there is pretty high chance u get one moderate on it. And if Nekima inflicts 9 damage then mage goes dead cause 5 + 2 (reduction from upgrade) + 2 (reduction from arcane shield) - 9 = 0 and even if u hit 2 weak u can Blood for Blood and still kill it and then move away. There is no need in 3 hits.

Btw Nekima can fly and hide behind terrain so if mages wreck u i would say u did something wrong.

 

So whatever mage player does u kill his model. And if he cheats/discards card for reduction its even bigger win. 

If he didnt not activate, you need moderate on one of the 2 first hits and you cant BB him. Right? If he did activate you're slow and pushed away so you have maybe 1 one hit. So generally you need whole activation of nekima to kill a singel 5ss model and Sandeep still has plethora of other attack vectors - banasuva, cerber, 2 other mages.

 

1 hour ago, Rillan said:

It more looks he is complaining just to complain. It doesn't look he played Nekima even once.

I play her quite a lot. I am not complaining, I'am suprised she is regarded so high against Sandeep and so far none one has showed why is she good in this match up. Dont know what your opponets do with Sandeep that they cant deal with her.

 

2 hours ago, Angelshard said:

@Passenty

How is the mage unactivated if he's slowed nekima?

Either you have three attacks or you have an activated mage. Both should very much result in one dead mage.

But fair enough, if nekima doesn't work for you that is fine. 

Have you tried a lure tactic where you hold back and lure his models into a death zone one by one?

Have you considered Serena bowman in an ultra aggressive list?

Titania should work quite well against sandeep too.

Aeslin will prevent your models from being pushed by him and can make mages and sandeep cry if she activates her aura near them.

If your enemy is static you could bring widow weaver to lower their wp.

It seems like your biggest issue is the three mages using furious casting next to the boost Gamin. 

There's been a lot of suggestions on how to break that up. Heck a single stitched could give you moving cover to negate their plus flip.

What do you mean by static? Sandeep crew is one of the most mobile crews in the game - angelica/captain and places/pushes from sandeep, have you tried WW? Dont own Serena yet but Ill definatly give her a try. 

If you use the lure tactic what do you try to lure? Its not like Sandeep dosent have means to surgical strike across the board where its needed so He can also apply pressure.

Sue is much better then aeslin, and yes he is a good counterpick.

I have never stated Sandeep is unbeatable (he is although you are always an underdog) but you cant convince me (so far) that just throwing Nekima into his face is a solid tactic

[Ludvig]

I usually use wicked mistress and beckon malifaux with Lilith so I'm thinking more along the lines of a ca 8 to push the mages out of position and slow while setting up my forests in a gap between two other terrain pieces ornext to a big house to block LoS to thr majority ofyour crew and suck his models in with ca 8 and a likely slow on the mage instead of my models. Tangle is only for the gamin with the buff on it, I don't think any of thrm have wp 6? I don't even own Nekima none of my advice has mentioned her.

 

[Rillan]

@Passenty try to use Fears given form it works very well on any neverborn beater. And if we talk about Nekima and u play on empty table so Nekima always slow there still is a way u can destroy mages. U have R3 while they have R1 and if they stick together engage all of them. Sandeep just can't protect everything and keep some cards for other things. Still don't see any problem with Nekima vs Mages

[daniello_s]

Dora with Rile them up seems good idea against Mage as they cannot reduce damage from this attack. Between your pushes and lures it should be possible to snatch a mage every turn and murder him i think.