Sonnia and purifying flame v. Summoners.

[4thstringer]

I've been thinking a lot about anti summoning tech.  I got thinking about sonnias ability to use bring out the Purifying flame.  If you have dispel magic somewhere, you will be putting them on negatives to cast, and if they are within 3, they can't use stones to get past it.  

The negatives- 1. You have to get the kill.

2. They can kill off the purifying flame.

3. If you haven't engaged their master with it, they can just walk away.

So timing becomes an issue.  You want to summon that purifying flame early enough to stop the summons, but late enough that it is hard to get the purifying flame dead to remove the negatives.

Also, should you spend the points on disrupt magic?.  The summoned totem already blocks soulstones.  Is that enough to hamper summons?

Third, do you want to combine this with a sniper to have the opportunity to get a distance kill on a model with burning to resummon purifying flame after they kill your first one? Or instead do you want to use a thallerian queller to suppress after you get the flame down.  

Is this all too much?

[Ludvig]

You could combine it with a couple of witch hunters and it shouldn't be all that bad. Many summoners have other casts in their crew that you could interfere with. Against arcanists, neverborn and ressers it could work on abilities spattered across the crew. It probably won't shut them down completely but messing with them for the price of a 1ss upgrade might just be worth it. Blanking on the exact wording of the ability, does Sonnia need to do the killing or is it anything with burning like her other summon?

[4thstringer]

Anything with burning and I think in her los

[Mortarion]

It is enough that a burning enemy dies. You do not need line of sight and there is no range.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Mortarion
Clarified that the killed model has to be an enemy

[4thstringer]

Bonus points if you can light on fire a sacrificial model like an electrical creation or desperate Merc which your opponent wants to kill to use their corpse or scrap.

[Gnomezilla]

11 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Bonus points if you can light on fire a sacrificial model like an electrical creation or desperate Merc which your opponent wants to kill to use their corpse or scrap.

Hey, I was using that scrap!

...if multiple models die while burning but at the same time, can you chain sacrifice-and-summon the pflame? Not that it should do anything as the pflame doesn’t burst a pulse when sacrificed, but still.

[4thstringer]

45 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Hey, I was using that scrap!

...if multiple models die while burning but at the same time, can you chain sacrifice-and-summon the pflame? Not that it should do anything as the pflame doesn’t burst a pulse when sacrificed, but still.

As someone that plays Ramos, would this be effective at slowing you down?

[Gnomezilla]

12 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

As someone that plays Ramos, would this be effective at slowing you down?

Not really, no. I still get the scrap. At most it’s a tad further back than I’d like, or I also brought Joss for Creative Salvage and only have one scrap not two.

[Ludvig]

Just read the ability, it doesn't prevent the model from placing the scrap so basically you would be giving Joss the same amount of scrap since Joss can now kill the flame instead of his own buddy.

The summoned flame might be able to keep the burntrain going unless the enemy has unactivated shooters nearby. It's definitely a nuisance just by standing near a few enemies. Negatives to Ca and the possibility of adding burning to them when it dies for Sam or the emissary to finish off and get a new one.

[Shock & Awe]

I (kind of) did this to a summon crew once. 

I didn't start the game with the flame in, but I brought the Pathfinder and I hired two traps.  I used the traps as Sonnia's targets - as they are Df 5 and Wp 6 - hello plus flip. So I used the 2nd activation alpha Sonnia (with Papa, Frank, and NHB).  The traps were just a hair off of six inches from their deployment zone, and Nico and his buddies were all nice and bunched up. 

Long story short, shooting my own traps made it so I could get three blasts off pretty easy (I did so twice) and handed out 6 damage and burning +2 to five models. With my last shot I hit the one model he'd activated and killed it (it was, of course, on fire) so I got the totem there. He activated his second model and couldn't kill the flame outright, so I disengaged, walked once, and was smack in the middle of his summon machine. The issue then was, "Do I kill this thing and light my whole crew on fire, or do I not have access to suits or stones?". He went with option one, but he had to do it turn two (as doing it turn one would have upped his whole crew to burning 4) which then made it easier for Sonnia to hit him repeatedly.  

Long story long, it's about getting the thing over on THEIR side of the board quickly. I tend to spend two stones on a trap to accomplish this.  Depending on the set up, I may use the first shot to do moderate (and the trap will survive that), put the burning on the trap there, then hit it again for severe, get three blasts and the totem from the trap. Some people would call that a waste of stones, but, for me, taking ALL the flips out of the opponents hand and watching them grimace when I get three blasts and burning on things that they could do (almost) nothing to stop is worth it to me.

I did this to Zoraida once. It was hilarious. 

"I'm gonna stone for..."

"No, you're not. That flame is stopping you."

"Fine, I'll kill that thing."

"Ok, now you're on fire."

"Fine, I have proper manners, you're on negatives."

"You also have Wp 10, and I have ancient runes."

"....."

"In other words, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die." 

[Ludvig]

@Shock & Awe

The trap is friendly to you so you can't summon the totem from it. Sounds like you played it right and it can do well, glad to hear!

[SurreyLee]

Bonus to this also is Sonnia can target the PF herself for plus flips (WP6 as per the trap) which on a moderate can get blasts and not kill it, then go for a severe killing it and putting Burning 2 on everyone within 2 of it. Assuming you've already put Burning on those targets beforehand with Sonnia's previous 2 attacks that's potentially 5 damage and burning 4 on multiple models. Now that isn't too shoddy. 

[SurreyLee]

And, assuming something with Burning 4 dies (come on, it's likely) another PF pops out ready for the next turn of funsies.

 

[wizuriel]

1 hour ago, SurreyLee said:

Bonus to this also is Sonnia can target the PF herself for plus flips (WP6 as per the trap) which on a moderate can get blasts and not kill it, then go for a severe killing it and putting Burning 2 on everyone within 2 of it. Assuming you've already put Burning on those targets beforehand with Sonnia's previous 2 attacks that's potentially 5 damage and burning 4 on multiple models. Now that isn't too shoddy. 

You find it is better to position the PF in combat and risk the randomization (but get the pulse damage when it dies) or place it more like 3" out so you don't get the pulse but can easily target the purfying flame to get that cheatable damage flip and  trigger?

[Tendrepie]

20 hours ago, Shock & Awe said:

put the burning on the trap there

I really don't know much about Sonnia but, aren't the clockwork trap immune to condition through inanimate ability?

Does the flame or Sonnia have ways to ignore immunity?

[SurreyLee]

17 hours ago, wizuriel said:

You find it is better to position the PF in combat and risk the randomization (but get the pulse damage when it dies) or place it more like 3" out so you don't get the pulse but can easily target the purfying flame to get that cheatable damage flip and  trigger?

I've not done any of this, all theory, but if you can avoid randomising, then this surely has to be better. As you can cheat down the defence of the PF a 7(tomes) or better can be enough. It's worth cheating in the tomes too i think for the potential damage output. Have a tournament on Sunday and was going to only run new masters but this thread makes me want to run Sonnia a different way now. Will report back.

[4thstringer]

2 hours ago, SurreyLee said:

 this thread makes me want to run Sonnia a different way now. 

This makes me so happy.  

[Shock & Awe]

On 3/15/2018 at 5:27 PM, Ludvig said:

@Shock & Awe

The trap is friendly to you so you can't summon the totem from it. Sounds like you played it right and it can do well, glad to hear!

I totally forgot about that.  You are, of course, absolutely right. I’ve only tried that method once, and it was because the model my opponent activated didn’t move forward, so I knew I wouldn’t have a target for the third shot.  So I played that wrong.  I’ll have to apologize to him for that!  

[Shock & Awe]

9 hours ago, Tendrepie said:

I really don't know much about Sonnia but, aren't the clockwork trap immune to condition through inanimate ability?

Does the flame or Sonnia have ways to ignore immunity?

Double right.  Dude, I am full of fail.  Yes, it is immune from inanimate.  

[Shock & Awe]

To save a small bit of face, I only did the total cheating method once!  I blanked on two imortant things - no, you can’t summon the flame from a friendly trap, and the trap can’t get the burning condition anyway.  

 

Delete that bit.  I got way ahead of myself. Haha. 

[SurreyLee]

On 16/03/2018 at 12:55 PM, 4thstringer said:

This makes me so happy.  

Okay, so I played in a small tourney at the weekend and though to try Sonnia a different way, using traps and PF as a target. First Game was Von Schill with a fair number of Friekorps. Blasts don't work against these guys so I didn't get to try it. Highlight however was twice, with Pathfinder on double negatives for Damage (but having hit his ignore armour trigger) Red jokering Damage on his Trapper and his Librarian. Sweet. 7-2 win (messed up Vendetta)

Game 2 was against a Collodi list. I'd not played against Collodi before but he his well, pull stuff around the place and put me under a bit. Cards were rubbish early three turns but last two turns killed lots with Sonnia and Samael. Monster Hunters were decent here too. Ended up 8-3 win.

Game 3 I knew i was up against a top UK player with Viks. Went for Nellie oddly and it was totally the wrong choice. Should have stuck with Sonnia but perhaps gone more flame wall and denied him area of the table. Lost 8-2 and ended up in 5th. Took best in faction Guild though in only my second event with them. Hussah. 

My 2nd tourney of the year on Saturday and I can well see the lady of flame coming to the table again. 

[jchrisobrien]

Has anyone tried bringing a Domador and Dead Doxie in a Sonnia list?  That's another 6" push to get her up the board w/out having to damage her like Nurse Heartsbane does.

[4thstringer]

24 minutes ago, jchrisobrien said:

Has anyone tried bringing a Domador and Dead Doxie in a Sonnia list?  That's another 6" push to get her up the board w/out having to damage her like Nurse Heartsbane does.

I haven't but I have enjoyed a belle in that role.  Pulling them into the open is effective too