Ironsides, Iron Determination & Red Joker

[Sebasthos]

The "Sleep now in the fire" - ability from Ironsides' Iron Determination says that a Red Joker coming up against Ironsides on a damage flip needs to be reflipped. What happens if the Red Joker is cheated in - I mean, can my opponent cheat it in or would it be pointless since he would have to reflip the RJ?

[Franchute]

On page 26 of the big book:

Quote

When a flip is required, the model turns over one or more cards from the top of he Fate Deck to achieve a random number and/or suit.

This suggests that a cheated joker is not flipped.

[Clement]

I don't think there's a plausible way to say a cheated card counts as "flipped" in any definition of "flip" I've seen used here.  If you can manage to cheat the Red Joker in on the damage flip against Iron Sides, it should stick.

What *is* muddy and depends on how the whole flip thing works out, is if you are at a hypothetical  on a damage flip against Ironsides, then turn over Red Joker and 7.  Depending on your definition of flip you either resolve Sleep Now in the Fire immediately, turn over a new card to replace the Red Joker, and then select the 7 or <new card>, whichever is worse.  Or you turn over those cards, and then either select the 7, or select the Red Joker and then "Flip a new card from their deck which takes its place" and hope for the best.  Which in this case is actually flipping one single card and not another full damage flip.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Clement said:

I don't think there's a plausible way to say a cheated card counts as "flipped" in any definition of "flip" I've seen used here.  If you can manage to cheat the Red Joker in on the damage flip against Iron Sides, it should stick.

What *is* muddy and depends on how the whole flip thing works out, is if you are at a hypothetical  on a damage flip against Ironsides, then turn over Red Joker and 7.  Depending on your definition of flip you either resolve Sleep Now in the Fire immediately, turn over a new card to replace the Red Joker, and then select the 7 or <new card>, whichever is worse.  Or you turn over those cards, and then either select the 7, or select the Red Joker and then "Flip a new card from their deck which takes its place" and hope for the best.  Which in this case is actually flipping one single card and not another full damage flip.

I would assume just the RJ needs to be reflipped, as that's what the ability says to do. Not to reflip the whole damage flip.

[Ludvig]

The term flip isn't clearly explained - it could mean either.

With the wording of this specific ability it does sound a bit like a cheated joker would work but it is far from certain and I bet Ironsides players would hate that interpretation.

[Franchute]

32 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The term flip isn't clearly explained - it could mean either.

With the wording of this specific ability it does sound a bit like a cheated joker would work but it is far from certain and I bet Ironsides players would hate that interpretation.

As an Ironsides player, I would consider that cheated jokers are not flipped.

[Adran]

The ability talks about flipping in the red joker. Cheating in the red joker is NOT the same as flipping in the red joker (as seen by the rules that prevent you cheating if the opponent flips a red joker), so she can still suffer a cheated red joker