New to 10T - Brewmaster and Oiran

[Cadaver_Junkie]

Hi guys!

I’ve been hitting things with Brewmaster over in Gremlins for a while now, and I think I have a reasonable grasp of how he does things.

Time to break into Ten Thunders!

Although I’m looking forward to painting my Misaki, I’d like to try the following list. Mostly because I love the models, I’ll be painting these things first, and I want to make it (or similar) work. 

Difficulty: no Yassinori or Terracotta warrior, I want to put things on the field less played and make them work. So, Oiran!

50 SS Ten Thunders Crew

The Brewmaster + 3 Pool

 - A Barkeep Never Sleeps (2)

 - Running Tab (1)

 - A Friendly Ear (1)

Apprentice Wesley (3)

Fingers (10)

Shadow Emissary (10)

 - Shadow Conflux (0)

Katanaka Crime Boss (8)

 - Hidden Agenda (0)

Oiran (5)

Oiran (5)

Oiran (5)

 

Some obvious synergies including 4 unreducable damage for every point of poison and binge to assist Fast Oiran flutters. 

 

What do do you think? Obviously needs to be adjusted for the strats and schemes, but as a base line?

 

 (exported from CrewFaux)

 

EDIT: Removed 'Recalled Training', added 'A Friendly Ear'

Edited February 16, 2018 by Cadaver_Junkie
Update to list - Cheers Jesy Blue

[Jesy Blue]

You didn't take Binge on The Brewmaster, you took Recall Training.... simple clerical error, same point cost.

Getting the Crime Boss to hurt someone and keeping the Oirans near the Emissary yields them a double positive flips on their first Lure into the bubble, then single positive thereafter, or focused twice more and a single quadruple positive flip Lure.... that should get the right suit most times. 

And that's the problem is getting that Crows suit when you really need it.  It's going to be hit or miss, either it will be amazing or it will suck eggs.

[Cadaver_Junkie]

8 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

You didn't take Binge on The Brewmaster, you took Recall Training.... simple clerical error, same point cost.

Getting the Crime Boss to hurt someone and keeping the Oirans near the Emissary yields them a double positive flips on their first Lure into the bubble, then single positive thereafter, or focused twice more and a single quadruple positive flip Lure.... that should get the right suit most times. 

And that's the problem is getting that Crows suit when you really need it.  It's going to be hit or miss, either it will be amazing or it will suck eggs.

Cheers for the reply!

I guess I should have outlined something in my style of Brewmaster play - I don't use his zero aura "Drinking Contest" very often, and I don't plan my lists around it. I've found it to be a trap - for the Brewmaster player! Last tournament I won four out of five games; in two of those I didn't use the aura at all. It's all about Swill!

Which means the Oirans don't need to use their Lure, except when it's useful for schemes and strats. 

My point is, I feel the same way about Binge. It's a fun gimmick, but it's also a trap. Swill or Obey are much stronger, especially if you take the new upgrade: A Friendly Ear. So I think I'll swap out Recalled Training for A friendly Ear. Sure, Wesley can use Binge to order your own models around, but with A Barkeep Never Sleeps I'm much more aggressive with Wesley, often have him out in front of Brewmaster and doing things to interrupt my opponent instead of just hiding somewhere within 6" and being a wasted activation.

Swill against your own guys is ok. Swill against the enemy is simply trading a master AP for an opponent card of their choosing, and I'm not sure that's a great exchange most of the time.

 

Hmmmm. One for the Road into Obey with A Friendly Ear, I get a free move, poison for 4 non-reducable damage against a target that's then doing something for me. Not too bad.

 

The Katanaka Crime boss adds a positive flip to damage not attack, which will help offset the low results of flutter - but you are 100% awesomely correct on the focused.

• Which begs the question - an  Oiran with Focused + 1 and Flutter. Does the Focus apply to all related Flutter trigger attacks? I'm guessing not, but that would be OP. Especially against Swilled targets.
• What do people think about attacking with the Katanaka Crima Boss, giving all Oiran Fast and Focused. Then Obeying him at the end of the turn for another attack, giving all the Oiran Fast and Focused again before the next turn begins?

[anencephalous]

My hot tip for Oiran is Hans.

I used to run a few, years back, if there was some nice high terrain I could pop Hans on. At one point cheaper, it cannot be all bad.

With focus and shoot he is pretty much guarenteed to damage something at the top of every turn, giving your Orian fast (and if you put him on a high point, keeps them in line of sight even if they are off scheme running).

5 point fast minions every turn, its like being in Gremlins. Only worse.

[Cadaver_Junkie]

24 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

My hot tip for Oiran is Hans.

I used to run a few, years back, if there was some nice high terrain I could pop Hans on. At one point cheaper, it cannot be all bad.

With focus and shoot he is pretty much guarenteed to damage something at the top of every turn, giving your Orian fast (and if you put him on a high point, keeps them in line of sight even if they are off scheme running).

5 point fast minions every turn, its like being in Gremlins. Only worse.

Hans eh? I’ll give it a thinking session

Likely less reliable than attacking a Swilled target, but with more availability due to range and less setup cost. Although then there’s the other benefits of the crime boss just being in there... yeah I’ll have to think about it cheers.

As for Gremlins, it’s Brewmaster!  But I get your point 

[Hargus56]

I quite like Oiran.  I ran a pair today in a Henchman Hardcore match I like to call Sidir's Harem with Graves as well.  Graves doors Sidir into position and he pops recalled and stones for rams and lays down the hate.  Fast and focused Oiran do great at tieing up models especially with their tome trigger.  I would be tempted to use that last AP for defensive stance for some top of next turn protection.  One turn Hungering Darkness had 4-5 poison in him.  I ran something similar in a shifting loyalties campaign.  Fast Oiran that cant be charged are great scheme runners.

[Eclipse]

Hello, let's talk about your list

For starters, I would take the Conflux of Inebriation on the Emissary if I am not bringing shooting minions in the game. It gives a bit more mobility and some other interesting things to the crew.
If you ARE taking the Shadow Conflux then you'd better a Katanaka Sniper in there, imo. Having ranged cover fire is great in most games.
Talking about snipers - as @anencephalous said - Hans is now more affordable and can take the 0ss "Hidden Agenda" himself. Another rarely-used option (we are going for that, right?) is Fuhatsu - with two 0ss upgrades (his own and Agenda) he can easily overpower Swilled targets. Another rarely used shooter is the TT Archer - now at 6ss, +1 if you take the archer upgrade.
I would not take Fingers in the crew unless the strat/scheme pool is really, really interact/marker heavy - you could take a ranged threat or a beater in his place. The Whiskey Golem is a very fun model unique to Brewie in TT. However, I like Ama no Zako even more: A lot of mobility and damage, and her Ml5 feels just right when you pass some Swill around
And since you are playing three Oiran - what do you think about taking Yamaziko with Smoke & Shadows? You can drop Smoke Markers with your Oiran now, and if you brought Hans you can shoot from behind the smoke, too.

[Cadaver_Junkie]

On 19/02/2018 at 10:26 PM, Eclipse said:

Hello, let's talk about your list

For starters, I would take the Conflux of Inebriation on the Emissary if I am not bringing shooting minions in the game. It gives a bit more mobility and some other interesting things to the crew.
If you ARE taking the Shadow Conflux then you'd better a Katanaka Sniper in there, imo. Having ranged cover fire is great in most games.
Talking about snipers - as @anencephalous said - Hans is now more affordable and can take the 0ss "Hidden Agenda" himself. Another rarely-used option (we are going for that, right?) is Fuhatsu - with two 0ss upgrades (his own and Agenda) he can easily overpower Swilled targets. Another rarely used shooter is the TT Archer - now at 6ss, +1 if you take the archer upgrade.
I would not take Fingers in the crew unless the strat/scheme pool is really, really interact/marker heavy - you could take a ranged threat or a beater in his place. The Whiskey Golem is a very fun model unique to Brewie in TT. However, I like Ama no Zako even more: A lot of mobility and damage, and her Ml5 feels just right when you pass some Swill around
And since you are playing three Oiran - what do you think about taking Yamaziko with Smoke & Shadows? You can drop Smoke Markers with your Oiran now, and if you brought Hans you can shoot from behind the smoke, too.

Thank you Eclipse for the reply!

Difficulty I have with Conflux of Inebriation is that the Zero action competes with the others inbuilt on the Emissary's card, and it's not as strong.
The inbuilt bonus of additional movement also relies on another factor (poisoned Emissary), which I may not always have, and again isn't necessarily as strong a bonus as +1 flip for minions.

Katanaka Sniper could be great though. It's probably not going to receive bonuses from the Emissary, but as a damage dealer against swilled targets it may excel. How do these guys fare scheming wise? I do like the infiltration aspect.

Fuhatsu, simply put: I don't like the model. So I'll never want to use it. Just personal preference though! Also, he's a pure damage dealer which I isn't my play style - I feel it limits my tactics too much. 

Fingers though, I've found to be pretty much an auto include in every single game - I've maybe had 1 game in 10 where he hasn't been singly responsible for at least 3VPs. I find it really difficult to have any alternative to this model, because I've never found anything to match it. Only because Brewmaster doesn't really need dedicated beaters in his list, because Swill creates beaters out of truly average models - so I find the more efficient lists run more schemers than damage dealers. Probably why I haven't considered the Archers either.

Whiskey Golem I use a LOT. For this list, it's either the Emissary or the Golem (or Fingers). I just feel that the Emissary will fit better - although the Golem would be a great place to put Hidden Agenda. This guy may find a place in some games, definitely.

Ama no Zako I hadn't considered at all! I'll give this one a think, cheers. 

And Yamaziko? Definitely. Looking forward to painting that one, model is in the mail right now

[InvokeChaos]

So my two cents, I use brewmaster a fair bit.  And I appreciate the lack of interest of Yasunori or terracotta. I'm not a fan of TW at 6ss honestly, that's a hyper competitive slot. I still use and love it, but it's not anywhere near an auto-take, which I suppose was the whole point of the increase.  

A few points:

Hidden Agenda

Hidden Agenda is far and away better on a ranged attacker. Doesn't really matter who it is, actually. But my favorite target is Gwyneth Maddox.  I know she is proxy bait right now, so I'll offer a secondary in a moment, but let me ramble a moment, hehe. 

Gwyneth has 3 solid things she can do that plays well into your crew. Her rigged deck can help you fish for suits (like the lure for the Oiran) or just high cards in general. Something I've been doing lately is leaving low cards on the top after using her Hit Me so that I can shoot into a melee and know who is flipping what. She can drop a scheme marker at range which is excellent in the current environment. And she heals on being missed, which combined with Swill, makes her a quite attractive tank. Not to mention her reposition works awesome when you can swill targets AND brilliance them.  Or spread the love  If you did want to run the bubble, she definitely can enable that. 

Otherwise, Sue is a great model for Hidden Agenda. He draws a card every turn, has a min3 gun on positives that Sh5 is much less worried about when swill is around, and has a great anti-cast aura that can really be useful. 

Looking at the more long range, you really only have Hans, as he's the only upgrade carrying sniper, abd Brewie does help his mobility a bit. 

Fingers

Fingers really feels like a waste of 10 points for me.  I know he's amazing. He really is. But he dies to a stiff breeze and one of the moves lately in the game overall has been slightly higher min damage. This makes fingers a huge liability as losing a 10ss model to three AP is just HURTFUL. He has next to no offensive capability, which would be find if his defense tech was strong enough to make up for it. It's not. I know he's reckless, but that only goes so far. I think I'd like him more if the defensive trigger was built in somewhere, but as it stands, you have 9wds and soulstones between death. 8 if you recklessed already that turn. Chatty and Don't Mind Me are great, as is I Saws it First... but you can take a Lotus Eater for 6ss and get better defensive tech, a pseudo chatty (not as good, but it does work), and a 0 action scheme marker pop (or just start of activation). And both of it's attack actions are good. Yeah you go to Df5, 7 wds with no stones... but it's a 6ss minion. Rather than a 10ss hench. On a min 3 model, it still takes 3 AP to kill a lotus eater. And if you have aggressive stance up, it could take far more than that. Especially if Brewie is reducing willpower from his poison. 

We just have so many tools right now that can do similar things, maybe not with the efficiency, but with utility. Yamaziko is INSANELY good right now. You have to be careful not to overextend her, but WP7, Stubborn in a game where we are seeing more and more lures and repositions targeting willpower is NICE.  She's nimble, loves getting fast, min3 with blasts... her only downfall is that darned Df4.  But she's SIX STONES. It's totally worth it! Just be careful who you stick her in against. 

Another thought here is that we have access to 10T bros and Yokai and even Charm Warders.  All three are 5ss, all three provide great utility in different areas and you can take 2 of them for one fingers. 10T Bros scheme better. Yokai kill WAY better. And Charm Warders provide some nice utility and defensive synergies while still being able to scheme, albeit not as easily as Bros or Yokai. 

Anna Lovelace, Taelor, Bishop are all 10ss and while they are much more kill oriented in general, in brewmaster they bring a lot of tools he doesn't already have access to. Especially if you're running 3 oiran as basically scheme runners or pseudo-tanks. Hell, even Sun Quiang might be a better pick and again, is cheaper.

Again, not trying to say Fingers isn't good. But I just feel is far superior in gremlins, where his abilities are so much more rare and sought after, and he has more things to help mitigate his defenses, like stilts or dirty cheater.

Emissary

I am probably going to take a lot of flak for this, but I don't really like the emissary with Brewie. I know, I KNOW. He's AMAZING... but... aside from the push and fasting models with an upgrade, he's just a ranged ca beater.  A good one, but that's really it.  His 0 action is cute to trigger with Brewie's new upgrade for poison damage, but we have the ability to delete models off the table. Literally. Why spread around poison for the cute trick when you can just swill a target and remove it? Here is where you get the whole, but yasunori thing... yes. With Yasunori and Brewmaster, Shadow is basically stapled on because you want a Fast charging Yasu with the ability to obey him for murder murder murder. 

But if you're not going to do that... Brewie has a lot of interesting options that suddenly become very viable when you can put anyone on negatives. My favorites to look at are:

Obsidian Oni - 0 heal for a low card and their ranged cast is further than emissary's with a better damage track, assuming you can get that straight flip. Which when casting onto negatives, actually happens a lot. 

Obsidian Statue - if your opponent doesn't have anti-armor, this guy is just a pain in the butt though and through. His spew lava is great utility, same range as Emissary and he has a couple of phenomenal 0's. (bonus, he also works well with obsidian oni!)

Illuminated - This plays on the bringing of Gwyneth. The Gwyn/Illuminated package is really really good.  Especially when your opponent is on negatives. I would flat out remove emissary, fingers, and an oiran to pop in Gwyn with 2 illuminated. You aren't styming your Oiran at all, as 2 focused fast minions is still nice. And now you have 2 armor 1, regen 1, self-healing, min 4 beatsticks that are thirsting for the Swill to go out.  Drugs and Alcohol... bad combination. 

Izamu - I know this is a weird one, but bear with me.  Izamu's biggest problem is survival and mobility.  Brewie fixes both of those problems. Your opponent on negatives makes him MUCH tougher (especially if no anti-armor) and you can reposition him easily. He's min 3, can cycle cards when cheating damage, and has 3 attacks a round base.  If you're not going to bring Yasu, this guy isn't a bad choice.

Ototo - Now 10ss with his upgrade, his quintessential problems mirror Izamu's.  But oh my god when you can mitigate those problems. His 0 action to pulse a slow duel when his targets are on negatives is MEAN.  Especially when you are now going to pummel one into the ground and leave the other 2 unable to really do anything. Again brewie fixes his speed problem, and increases his survivability by proxy. My biggest problem with Ototo is honestly his WP4.  He basically needs to have Servant stapled to him.  But at 11ss, straight swap for fingers and running tab, he can bring some serious pain and AP efficiency to a crew that already messes with that.

I have a few more thoughts, but that's enough for one novel!  

[Cadaver_Junkie]

On 23/02/2018 at 3:34 AM, InvokeChaos said:

Hidden Agenda

Hidden Agenda is far and away better on a ranged attacker. Doesn't really matter who it is, actually. But my favorite target is Gwyneth Maddox.  I know she is proxy bait right now, so I'll offer a secondary in a moment, but let me ramble a moment, hehe. 

Gwyneth has 3 solid things she can do that plays well into your crew. Her rigged deck can help you fish for suits (like the lure for the Oiran) or just high cards in general. Something I've been doing lately is leaving low cards on the top after using her Hit Me so that I can shoot into a melee and know who is flipping what. She can drop a scheme marker at range which is excellent in the current environment. And she heals on being missed, which combined with Swill, makes her a quite attractive tank. Not to mention her reposition works awesome when you can swill targets AND brilliance them.  Or spread the love  If you did want to run the bubble, she definitely can enable that. 

Otherwise, Sue is a great model for Hidden Agenda. He draws a card every turn, has a min3 gun on positives that Sh5 is much less worried about when swill is around, and has a great anti-cast aura that can really be useful. 

Looking at the more long range, you really only have Hans, as he's the only upgrade carrying sniper, abd Brewie does help his mobility a bit. 

You're probably right about Hidden Agenda being better on a ranged attacker - although I plan on getting my Katanaka Crime Boss right in there anyway. I'll keep an eye out for Gwyneth - not going to proxy anything, I can wait. I'd like to see the model first before I plan anything. Although I feel like I should really be making use of Brilliance, and it's not what I'm going for.

Sue seems fun too, but the model doesn't suit what I'm trying to go for style wise. That said, guitars and booze go well together so never say never. And when I see the model in person anyway, it'll be like just all other Malifaux models. I'll want it. (Wyrd's renders really don't do the game justice)

On 23/02/2018 at 3:34 AM, InvokeChaos said:

Fingers

Fingers really feels like a waste of 10 points for me.  I know he's amazing. He really is. But he dies to a stiff breeze and one of the moves lately in the game overall has been slightly higher min damage. This makes fingers a huge liability as losing a 10ss model to three AP is just HURTFUL. He has next to no offensive capability, which would be find if his defense tech was strong enough to make up for it. It's not. I know he's reckless, but that only goes so far. I think I'd like him more if the defensive trigger was built in somewhere, but as it stands, you have 9wds and soulstones between death. 8 if you recklessed already that turn. Chatty and Don't Mind Me are great, as is I Saws it First... but you can take a Lotus Eater for 6ss and get better defensive tech, a pseudo chatty (not as good, but it does work), and a 0 action scheme marker pop (or just start of activation). And both of it's attack actions are good. Yeah you go to Df5, 7 wds with no stones... but it's a 6ss minion. Rather than a 10ss hench. On a min 3 model, it still takes 3 AP to kill a lotus eater. And if you have aggressive stance up, it could take far more than that. Especially if Brewie is reducing willpower from his poison. 

We just have so many tools right now that can do similar things, maybe not with the efficiency, but with utility. Yamaziko is INSANELY good right now. You have to be careful not to overextend her, but WP7, Stubborn in a game where we are seeing more and more lures and repositions targeting willpower is NICE.  She's nimble, loves getting fast, min3 with blasts... her only downfall is that darned Df4.  But she's SIX STONES. It's totally worth it! Just be careful who you stick her in against. 

Another thought here is that we have access to 10T bros and Yokai and even Charm Warders.  All three are 5ss, all three provide great utility in different areas and you can take 2 of them for one fingers. 10T Bros scheme better. Yokai kill WAY better. And Charm Warders provide some nice utility and defensive synergies while still being able to scheme, albeit not as easily as Bros or Yokai. 

Anna Lovelace, Taelor, Bishop are all 10ss and while they are much more kill oriented in general, in brewmaster they bring a lot of tools he doesn't already have access to. Especially if you're running 3 oiran as basically scheme runners or pseudo-tanks. Hell, even Sun Quiang might be a better pick and again, is cheaper.

Again, not trying to say Fingers isn't good. But I just feel is far superior in gremlins, where his abilities are so much more rare and sought after, and he has more things to help mitigate his defenses, like stilts or dirty cheater.
 

Yamaziko  is a definite possibility. When I've finished painting my Sky Pirates for an upcoming tournament, I'll start on the 10 Thunders models - and Yamaziko is first up.
Great model, just received the updated card. And I really do need to wean myself off Fingers. He's just... 9 games in 10 he'll win me at least 3VP's. 
You're right, time for something new!

10T brothers just make me want to play a crew built around Crime Bosses, Lotus Eaters and 10T Brothers. See that patch of table there? Yeah that's mine. You can't do anything about that. Charm warders also look pretty sweet, hope their models are great... I'm going to have to sit down and properly read all 10T options I think. This gives me a lot to think about.

Hmm. Anna Lovelace. Looks great with Talos in maybe a Misaki crew. Damn I love this game. My wallet does not.
Taelor looks great, but I don't really want to buy that box set (although Ronin...) - I also don't like the Miss alternate model as much as the original. 

Yeah ok, I'll remove Fingers.

 

On 23/02/2018 at 3:34 AM, InvokeChaos said:

Emissary

I am probably going to take a lot of flak for this, but I don't really like the emissary with Brewie. I know, I KNOW. He's AMAZING... but... aside from the push and fasting models with an upgrade, he's just a ranged ca beater.  A good one, but that's really it.  His 0 action is cute to trigger with Brewie's new upgrade for poison damage, but we have the ability to delete models off the table. Literally. Why spread around poison for the cute trick when you can just swill a target and remove it? Here is where you get the whole, but yasunori thing... yes. With Yasunori and Brewmaster, Shadow is basically stapled on because you want a Fast charging Yasu with the ability to obey him for murder murder murder. 

But if you're not going to do that... Brewie has a lot of interesting options that suddenly become very viable when you can put anyone on negatives. My favorites to look at are:

Obsidian Oni - 0 heal for a low card and their ranged cast is further than emissary's with a better damage track, assuming you can get that straight flip. Which when casting onto negatives, actually happens a lot. 

Obsidian Statue - if your opponent doesn't have anti-armor, this guy is just a pain in the butt though and through. His spew lava is great utility, same range as Emissary and he has a couple of phenomenal 0's. (bonus, he also works well with obsidian oni!)

Illuminated - This plays on the bringing of Gwyneth. The Gwyn/Illuminated package is really really good.  Especially when your opponent is on negatives. I would flat out remove emissary, fingers, and an oiran to pop in Gwyn with 2 illuminated. You aren't styming your Oiran at all, as 2 focused fast minions is still nice. And now you have 2 armor 1, regen 1, self-healing, min 4 beatsticks that are thirsting for the Swill to go out.  Drugs and Alcohol... bad combination. 

Izamu - I know this is a weird one, but bear with me.  Izamu's biggest problem is survival and mobility.  Brewie fixes both of those problems. Your opponent on negatives makes him MUCH tougher (especially if no anti-armor) and you can reposition him easily. He's min 3, can cycle cards when cheating damage, and has 3 attacks a round base.  If you're not going to bring Yasu, this guy isn't a bad choice.

Ototo - Now 10ss with his upgrade, his quintessential problems mirror Izamu's.  But oh my god when you can mitigate those problems. His 0 action to pulse a slow duel when his targets are on negatives is MEAN.  Especially when you are now going to pummel one into the ground and leave the other 2 unable to really do anything. Again brewie fixes his speed problem, and increases his survivability by proxy. My biggest problem with Ototo is honestly his WP4.  He basically needs to have Servant stapled to him.  But at 11ss, straight swap for fingers and running tab, he can bring some serious pain and AP efficiency to a crew that already messes with that.

I have a few more thoughts, but that's enough for one novel!  

Unfortunately for your wall of actually very helpful text there, the Emissary stays. He'll just have the basic upgrade (not the Conflux of Inebriation), but I'm not using him because of his effectiveness. I just really love the model, and the only reason I'm not painting it today is because I need to damn well finish Zipp.
The other options are great though, although straight beaters never really appeal to me play-style wise. I already have Ototo, he'll be painted soon.

On 23/02/2018 at 3:34 AM, InvokeChaos said:

I have a few more thoughts, but that's enough for one novel!  

 

The thoughts were great! I'll probably spend a lot of today just re-reading through the books to be honest.

 

[Jesy Blue]

On 2/23/2018 at 9:08 PM, Cadaver_Junkie said:

Damn I love this game. My wallet does not.

Truer words were never spoken.

 

I do like the idea of Hidden Adgenda on Sue.  Easier to get the damage done whether ranged or melee.