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daniello_s

Lucky Effigy

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Jafar made a topic about Gluttony and I want to ask similar question about our Effigy - anyone used it? In what purpose? To me it is a 'dead' model but maybe I miss something.

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56 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Jafar made a topic about Gluttony and I want to ask similar question about our Effigy - anyone used it? In what purpose? To me it is a 'dead' model but maybe I miss something.

I sometimes use it with my collodi....

The master buff won't heal you that much and slop hauler is only 1ss more. The only list i would see the effigy played is in a mah list with emissary (double ram chores) to get some use of her ml attack damage track.

2 month ago i may have argued that 4ss htk armor minion is nice but survivors are here now.

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There was a time when people were thinking of the effigy with Ophelia, but then we got into a weirdly long discussion of what exactly the definition of the word "Flip" is and it sort of spiraled out of control.

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1 hour ago, Clement said:

There was a time when people were thinking of the effigy with Ophelia, but then we got into a weirdly long discussion of what exactly the definition of the word "Flip" is and it sort of spiraled out of control.

Still no ruling on that as far as I know so go crazy with it. I think a lot of players will accept that ability in the more powerful interpretation and not even consider the alternative. I bet a crushing majority of players don't spend enough time with the base rules to even consider that the word flips isn't just flips. That was mostly us rules lawyers who spend way too much time thinking about that kind of thing.

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I love the effigy, the main reason I take him is for Hit Me and the fact he is a 4ss significant tough to kill minion. Yes he doesn't have reckless and isn't a Gremlin but where he shines is getting to a key area of the board turn 1 and then just putting up hit me and then dropping a marker. I find he is excellent value when doing dig their graves or similar schemes where you need to drop markers near enemies.

With regards the masters he goes best with the obvious one is Brewmaster due to Swill allowing him to hit easier and the extra WP duels from Hit Me can help protect Brewie and burn even more cards from your opponent. I also like him with Mah as her Ml buff does apply to him and can occasionally allow him to hit someone, especially if you have taken the Emissary as well as you can get him up to Ml5.

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I'm with @I'm a Teapot!on this - Effigy is fine with Brewie. Hitting on Swilled targets makes him a very nice damage dealer for his cost and Hit Me can also be useful with Brewster.

The idea of using him to kill the Doll sounds like a fair use as well, though.

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On 14.02.2018 at 8:54 PM, Ludvig said:

Still no ruling on that as far as I know so go crazy with it. I think a lot of players will accept that ability in the more powerful interpretation and not even consider the alternative. I bet a crushing majority of players don't spend enough time with the base rules to even consider that the word flips isn't just flips. That was mostly us rules lawyers who spend way too much time thinking about that kind of thing.

So will it work with Somer Rams aura?:D

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9 minutes ago, green-n-dumb said:

So will it work with Somer Rams aura?:D

No. You didn't flip a ram card, your duel total gets a ram from Som'er.

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On 2/14/2018 at 7:54 PM, Ludvig said:

Still no ruling on that as far as I know so go crazy with it. I think a lot of players will accept that ability in the more powerful interpretation and not even consider the alternative. I bet a crushing majority of players don't spend enough time with the base rules to even consider that the word flips isn't just flips. That was mostly us rules lawyers who spend way too much time thinking about that kind of thing.

When it came up in our group, it was pretty much 50/50 to be honest, and most people around here aren't exactly rules lawyers. Most players will accept any rules interpretation if you are insistent enough about it, but that doesn't mean that you would be correct to insist.

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1 minute ago, Myyrä said:

When it came up in our group, it was pretty much 50/50 to be honest, and most people around here aren't exactly rules lawyers. Most players will accept any rules interpretation if you are insistent enough about it, but that doesn't mean that you would be correct to insist.

Insisting is probably never the right thing to do. If someone is really against something that's ambiguous I'll usually play the way they prefer. 

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12 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Insisting is probably never the right thing to do. If someone is really against something that's ambiguous I'll usually play the way they prefer. 

Part of it is attempting to find a perceived balance I suspect.

If we play with the broader definition of flip "I flip 2 cards when I have a positive on attack", then the buff he gives out is sort of OK as a passive healing source on Masters that flip tons of cards over their turn (so Ophelia basically).

If we play with the narrow definition of flip "I turned over 2 cards when I have a positive on the attack flip.  Whichever one I selected is the one I flipped", then the buff he gives out is objectively the worst by a large margin.  In which case his value is in...  his attack? I guess?

 

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29 minutes ago, Clement said:

Part of it is attempting to find a perceived balance I suspect.

If we play with the broader definition of flip "I flip 2 cards when I have a positive on attack", then the buff he gives out is sort of OK as a passive healing source on Masters that flip tons of cards over their turn (so Ophelia basically).

If we play with the narrow definition of flip "I turned over 2 cards when I have a positive on the attack flip.  Whichever one I selected is the one I flipped", then the buff he gives out is objectively the worst by a large margin.  In which case his value is in...  his attack? I guess?

 

And then Collodi takes it and gives the buff to a full crew of stitched or other hard to kill minions attacking near the emissary for positives to every attack and extra positives for Collodi's obey like action and that okayish buff just makes you want to kill yourself. If Collodi couldn't take it people would probably not mind which way it went nearly as much. I woulsn't mind a rewrite where it worked differently for gremlins and Collodi, kind of like how librarians and their heal work.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

And then Collodi takes it and gives the buff to a full crew of stitched or other hard to kill minions attacking near the emissary for positives to every attack and extra positives for Collodi's obey like action and that okayish buff just makes you want to kill yourself. If Collodi couldn't take it people would probably not mind which way it went nearly as much. I woulsn't mind a rewrite where it worked differently for gremlins and Collodi, kind of like how librarians and their heal work.

I fear the bigger NPE imo is if we use the stronger (and imo way it is designed) definition of a flip then both Molly and Lawyers can do the same thing and their attacks become absurdly powerful. 

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

And then Collodi takes it and gives the buff to a full crew of stitched or other hard to kill minions attacking near the emissary for positives to every attack and extra positives for Collodi's obey like action and that okayish buff just makes you want to kill yourself. If Collodi couldn't take it people would probably not mind which way it went nearly as much. I woulsn't mind a rewrite where it worked differently for gremlins and Collodi, kind of like how librarians and their heal work.

Would it be worth pointing out that in that situation, Brutal Effigy is likely going to be more productive?

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3 hours ago, wizuriel said:

I fear the bigger NPE imo is if we use the stronger (and imo way it is designed) definition of a flip then both Molly and Lawyers can do the same thing and their attacks become absurdly powerful. 

Those abilities both refer to Moderate damage being flipped and not a suit being flipped. Are cards flipped as part of a damage flip even Weak, Moderate, or Severe before they are chosen as the active card?

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I'm going to claim proof of intent from the combat example on page 22 of the two-player starter set:  if you have fate modifiers, you turn over flip (mechanically turn over) multiple cards but only the single chosen card is considered Flipped.

 

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7 hours ago, Clement said:

Would it be worth pointing out that in that situation, Brutal Effigy is likely going to be more productive?

I'm not sure I agree. 

Brutal requires damage to be done during an attack to heal and kills to draw.

Lucky works in any duel and immediately so if you attack a htk model on one wound and they flip a ram for the defense they go above htk before you do the damage. All Collodi's dolls can also go fast but they might not always attack, lucky lets a stitched rhat is out of reach go close and do the (0) just to hope for a ram in the duel total for instance. 

@wizuriel

The faq could be very careful to menion this doesn't apply to anytgin with flip in it but tus axrion alone.

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7 hours ago, Ludvig said:

The faq could be very careful to menion this doesn't apply to anytgin with flip in it but tus axrion alone.

If they want it so any ram flipped works for the effigy and not Molly/Lawyer ect the only way I can think of doing it is 2 faqs

1) Cards don't calculate severity until chosen (so even if Molly flips a 11 and a 1 until she actually picks the card they aren't considered a weak/severe card)

2) flipped cards can then be any card flipped and that includes the suit

 

 

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24 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

If they want it so any ram flipped works for the effigy and not Molly/Lawyer ect the only way I can think of doing it is 2 faqs

1) Cards don't calculate severity until chosen (so even if Molly flips a 11 and a 1 until she actually picks the card they aren't considered a weak/severe card)

2) flipped cards can then be any card flipped and that includes the suit

 

 

Is there any action/ability in the game that gives :+fate or :-fate soecifically to flips? If there is, I'd argue a flip is the act of turning X cards to get a value.

Otherwise, having something apply a modifier that changes the number of cards you turn to something that specifically means "to turn a single card" would be paradoxical

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17 hours ago, cfrag said:

Is there any action/ability in the game that gives :+fate or :-fate soecifically to flips?

Recalled Training gives ":+fate to all flips".

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Quote

Otherwise, having something apply a modifier that changes the number of cards you turn to something that specifically means "to turn a single card" would be paradoxical

Have you stopped to read the rules for flips and fate modifiers lately?  :mellow:

One of the obnoxious features of the rules is that the word "flip" is used to refer to several different things in different contexts:

  • flip - the process of turning over one or more cards and choosing one of them.  As in, Attack flip, damage flip, "all flips", etc.
  • flip - turning over a card from the top of the deck.  As used in the description of a Flip, and the duel descriptions.

As a pointed example:  "Normally, a player flips one card when performing a duel or a flip."  

For bonus points, the game term isn't always capitalized to distinguish it from the regular English word.  :(

In the Damage and Wounds sections, where Damage Flips and Healing Flips etc. are discussed, unlike the duel rules which are chatty and have parenthetical reminders about flips being one or more cards, you get stuff like "To perform a damage flip the model dealing the damage flips the top card of its deck and compares the card's value to the damage chart below."

That sentence is misleading or wrong, since Damage Flips are still subject to Fate Modifiers.  And this wording problem dates back to the 1st edition rules:

"When making a Damage Flip, flip a Fate Card and compare its value (not the suit) to the Damage Chart below to determine the amount of damage the hit inflicted. A model may Cheat Fate on a Damage Flip unless one or more :-fate apply to the flip. "

 

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Unfortunately I remember getting pretty confused when I was learning the game because of that. The word "flip" is both usednfor the act of revealing a card from the deck and determining a value by using the deck. The issue is when these are not the same thing, like you just pointed out

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Played some games as Brewie with effigy - and that was amazing.
Swilled models can't say "NO".
Doing easy Vendetta with 4ss model who can give some heals to master and become one more WP duel near Brewie is great.
 

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