At what point do you fall off terrain?

[jerhien]

Alright, so here's the question (and I'm sorry if it's been answered already) ;

We're having a hard time understanding the falling rules, when you can use them, and how movement paths are figured out when falling.

If my model is on a Height 3 piece of terrain, when can I choose to fall off of it? Is it when my base touches the edge that I place in base to base contact, does my base have to clear the terrain completely in order to place in base to base with the terrain? Can a base exist partially on terrain and partially suspended over the edge of it?

I know, for instance, that bases can exist partially up or down climable terrain, but that doesn't seem to help any with this.

[santaclaws01]

A model doesn't fall until there is nothing under it to keep it up.

[Clement]

The downside to making stuff Severe rather then climbable is you punish larger base models since they spend more time moving through it.

The climbing rules really aren't complex.  What this ends up being is that if a model has 6 inches of movement and wants to cross a Ht 1 wall during that move, you end up with 4 lateral inches of movement (because you lost 2 climbing up the wall and likely fell off the far side). 

Relevant FAQ entry.

Quote

41. Can a model end its move halfway up a Climbable surface? Is it possible for the model to end its move
suspended in mid-air if the base does not fit on the terrain, and the terrain has the Climbable trait?

Technically, yes. However, players define their own terrain before the game. It is likely best to only define things as “Climbable” which are actually Climbable (i.e. stairs, ladders, steep hills, etc). If you choose to define a sheer, vertical cliff as Climbable you can have the odd situation of a model suspended in mid-air, but this is no different than defining a solid, 6” tall rock as Severe terrain and then having difficulty in balancing your models on it; it likely should have just been defined as impassable, be careful how you define terrain.

If you are nervous about some hilarious tiny lip of terrain you'd rather not worry about models being on, you define it as impassible, don't give it climbable, and move on with your life.  I have a lot of steeply roofed houses and gazebos and other weird pieces of terrain I'd rather not try to balance stuff on.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Clement
Grammar, I haz it.

[jerhien]

I appreciate the response (and you could totally be right) but can you back that up with anything as per the forum guidelines? Citations, reasoning, etc?
 

[Ludvig]

19 minutes ago, jerhien said:

Can you back that up with anything?

I don't think there's anything solid in the rulebook but you don't get to move or place your base size for free when falling so it is the best way to handle it. Otherwise people could game the falling for extra movement. I think the person trying to get to move farther than allowed is the one that has to prove why they can do it, not the other way around.

Online PDF p 46: Models moving off elevations and falling suffer no damage if the fall was 2” or less.
If the fall was more than 2” the fall deals 1 damage per 1”, or fraction thereof, fallen.

Only refrence I found to falling. If some part of your base is on the terrain you are still on it since any part being within something means you are within that distance.

[jerhien]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

I don't think there's anything solid in the rulebook but you don't get to move or place your base size for free when falling so it is the only logical answer.

Does it say you don't get to do that? I thought I remembered reading that you place your base in base contact with the terrain piece - I can't find that currently, but I am looking at the Movement and Terrain section;

"Models moving off elevations and falling suffer no damage if the fall 2" or less..." (page 44, small rulebook). It doesn't say "completely off" - and while it's certainly arguable that the intent is for that to read "completely off" I'd just rather have a clean answer.

[santaclaws01]

22 minutes ago, jerhien said:

I appreciate the response (and you could totally be right) but can you back that up with anything as per the forum guidelines? Citations, reasoning, etc?
 

A model's base can not be within impassable terrain, so as long there is something under the model then it can't go down. 

[Ludvig]

4 minutes ago, jerhien said:

Does it say you don't get to do that? I thought I remembered reading that you place your base in base contact with the terrain piece - I can't find that currently, but I am looking at the Movement and Terrain section;

"Models moving off elevations and falling suffer no damage if the fall 2" or less..." (page 44, small rulebook). It doesn't say "completely off" - and while it's certainly arguable that the intent is for that to read "completely off" I'd just rather have a clean answer.

It doesn't say you get to do that and you only get to do what is explicitly said. Does the game explicitly say I can't just remove your model from the game if I feel like it or does it specifically say I can't just put a few more cards in my hand? Don't think so but it specifically tells you when you are allowed to do those things.

Falling doesn't place you. The part I quoted is the only mention of falling in the entire ruleset.

[jerhien]

2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

A model's base can not be within impassable terrain, so as long there is something under the model then it can't go down. 

So the argument here is that the floor of the platform you're standing on is impassible, and you can't place because of the existence of the floor - am I reading you right?

[jerhien]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

It doesn't say you get to do that and you only get to do what is explicitly said. Does the game explicitly say I can't just remove your model from the game if I feel like it or does it specifically say I can't just put a few more cards in my hand? Don't think so but it specifically tells you when you are allowed to do those things.

It does explicitly tell me that I have the option of falling, however, and it seems very unclear about how, precisely, that falling is carried out (which is why I'm asking).

[jerhien]

It's not that I think it SHOULD work either way, I just want to understand how it's supposed to work so we have better game consistency. I'm not trying to be exploitative, I've just seen it played both ways and thought a definitive answer would be really nice.

[Ludvig]

6 minutes ago, jerhien said:

It does explicitly tell me that I have the option of falling, however, and it seems very unclear about how, precisely, that falling is carried out (which is why I'm asking).

It doesn't "let" you fall. If you move off elevation you fall, that's what the rules say. As long as some part of your base is on elevation you are on elevation. 

 

Literally the only time falling is mentioned (except for a few other uses that aren't relevant to this meaning of falling) are these two paragraphs on p 46 that I referred to:
 

Models moving off elevations and falling suffer no damage if the fall was 2” or less.
If the fall was more than 2” the fall deals 1 damage per 1”, or fraction thereof, fallen.
Example: A model that falls off of a Ht 4 cliff would suffer 4 damage. A model that
falls from a Ht 6 cliff but lands on a Ht 3 surface would suffer 3 damage.

[Ludvig]

For sake of completeness the word fall also comes up on p 37:

Whether standard or unique, all Actions fall into two categories, they are either
Tactical Actions or Attack Actions.

and the strategy "Squatter's rights" on p 85

Som’er adjusted his hat so that it stood taller on his thick brow. “Boys, whosits mayhaps
fine wheated mash in dem dar stills. Da whosits ain’t got no rights to boozin’ stills when we
gots corned mash for a fixin’ the hoochin’ stills. Whensome now they might stumble up a day
whensome the sands a grem’s falls. Whensome idn’t aday.”

[jerhien]

I appreciate the information - I'm still left with the vagueness of "off" as the issue - and the question about whether or not a base can exist partially suspended off of elevated terrain.

The game is pretty good about defining within vs completely within so I don't think it's absurd to request clarification of what they mean by "off" - and if my models base can exist partially off terrain, you can do some really neat things with running along ledges etc...

[Ludvig]

8 minutes ago, jerhien said:

I appreciate the information - I'm still left with the vagueness of "off" as the issue - and the question about whether or not a base can exist partially suspended off of elevated terrain.

The game is pretty good about defining within vs completely within so I don't think it's absurd to request clarification of what they mean by "off" - and if my models base can exist partially off terrain, you can do some really neat things with running along ledges etc...

Tthe age old rule of "if the mini falls down you can't place it there" is there for a reason. You are still explicitly forbidden from moving more than the distance mentioned on any move and falling doesn't give permission to change that so if on top you need to stop where you can actually stop. During a move I guess you could game this, we've never really thought about that. We usually have sort of a houserule that your entire base must be supported but the rules aren't clear on that. That creates a good balance because you cannot game it to move with a millimeter of your base on terrain but actually need to fit but you are expressly forbidden by the rules to fall so you need to stop while fully supported. Some terrain is too small to even fit a base in which case we specify which base sizes can actually stand there. That way it makes sense.

[jerhien]

And that all makes sense - it's more that I travel around the area for events and stuff, and while I locally might use a similar house rule, I don't want to have the conversation with every TO whose shop I go to for an event about how they want to play it.

[santaclaws01]

8 minutes ago, jerhien said:

I appreciate the information - I'm still left with the vagueness of "off" as the issue - and the question about whether or not a base can exist partially suspended off of elevated terrain.

The game is pretty good about defining within vs completely within so I don't think it's absurd to request clarification of what they mean by "off" - and if my models base can exist partially off terrain, you can do some really neat things with running along ledges etc...

If you are on something then you are not off of it. Unless you can come up with a compelling reason that models get a free movement .5"~1" movement because half their base is hanging off of terrain.

[Ludvig]

Just now, jerhien said:

And that all makes sense - it's more that I travel around the area for events and stuff, and while I locally might use a similar house rule, I don't want to have the conversation with every TO whose shop I go to for an event about how they want to play it.

I usually ask opponents about this kind of stuff when we are defining and we decide on something, I've never had it be a problem. Faced an opponent in England when we did it as anything that could stand there after you let it go could remain there, that worked as well although I played it very safe, didn't want my models dropping on each other. Low walls and crates can be defined in very different ways between metas.

[jerhien]

Off is not completely off - I can be hanging off of a thing, I can be stepping off of a thing. I can be moving off of a thing.

[jerhien]

Related - I have a model charging over a wall - it has to climb the wall as part of it's charge. Does it's base ever actually rest on top of the wall as part of movement? If so, what part of the base is atop the wall? The frontmost lip, the center, the backmost lip?


I'm sorry guys, and I know these seem frivolous because we all have a way we play the game, but some clarity would REALLY help us out.

[santaclaws01]

Just now, jerhien said:

Off is not completely off - I can be hanging off of a thing, I can be stepping off of a thing. I can be moving off of a thing.

And none of those are you being off of something. They're transitions leading from a state of on to off.

[Ludvig]

1 minute ago, jerhien said:

Related - I have a model charging over a wall - it has to climb the wall as part of it's charge. Does it's base ever actually rest on top of the wall as part of movement? If so, what part of the base is atop the wall? The frontmost lip, the center, the backmost lip?


I'm sorry guys, and I know these seem frivolous because we all have a way we play the game, but some clarity would REALLY help us out.

You cannot game it to gain movement so unless you have some movement to spare you cannot move onto terrain after climbing. Just like there is no free place down there is no free move up. If you charged past it anyway you would just measure the distance and subtract the climb. We usually say that you can't stop on walls since our minis don't fit completely just like we do other elevation so you either have movement to clear it or stop before it.

[jerhien]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

And none of those are you being off of something. They're transitions leading from a state of on to off.

I understand your argument - that Off in this case is completely off - it's just that Off is nondescript here - we don't know what's meant by it until we get clarification.

Being certain of the interpretation of a thing is fine, but it's not a supported interpretation either way.

[WWHSD]

2 minutes ago, jerhien said:

Related - I have a model charging over a wall - it has to climb the wall as part of it's charge. Does it's base ever actually rest on top of the wall as part of movement? If so, what part of the base is atop the wall? The frontmost lip, the center, the backmost lip?


I'm sorry guys, and I know these seem frivolous because we all have a way we play the game, but some clarity would REALLY help us out.

You have a 30mm base and the wall is 1/4 of an inch wide you are on top of the wall for about 1 and 1/4 inches (since 30mm is about an inch). The entire length of the bases will have to cross the top.

[jerhien]

Just now, Ludvig said:

You cannot game it to gain movement so unless you have some movement to spare you cannot move onto terrain after climbing. Just like there is no free place down there is no free move up. If you charged past it anyway you would just measure the distance and subtract the climb. We usually say that you can't stop on walls since our minis don't fit completely just like we do other elevation so you either have movement to clear it or stop before it.

We play it similarly - but we're realizing that we're doing that without actually knowing how it's intended to be played by Wyrd - thus the question.

[jerhien]

1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

You have a 30mm base and the wall is 1/4 of an inch wide you are on top of the wall for about 1 and 1/4 inches (since 30mm is about an inch). The entire length of the bases will have to cross the top.

That seems to make sense to me - which means you're paying significantly more then 2 inches to cross the wall. 2 inches up, an inch and a quarter over, then you continue to move is what you're saying?