10T against Summoners

[ElPuto]

Last game against Ramos made me think on what are our choices against him, but even other Summoners in general. Kang can be good, as many summons are Construct or Undead, Taelor can be another choice (now with the price drop), but do we have an effective way to take care of markers (countering in this way Reva too) or multiple models like Arachnids at the same time?

What's your Strategy to avoid being out-activated?

[Jesy Blue]

Ohagura Bettari vs summoners.

There is no out activation in TT, we are the quality over quantity faction.  You just have to learn how to kill faster and more efficiently.

... or take Asami and summon also, fight summon with summon and all that.

 

Typically, I use Brewmaster, so the number of things in my Drinking Party bubble doesn't matter.

[ElPuto]

59 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Ohagura Bettari vs summoners.

There is no out activation in TT, we are the quality over quantity faction.  You just have to learn how to kill faster and more efficiently.

... or take Asami and summon also, fight summon with summon and all that.

 

Typically, I use Brewmaster, so the number of things in my Drinking Party bubble doesn't matter.

Well, Ohaguro is extra mobile vs summoners, but doesn't fix the problem. The other suggestions are probably ok.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, ElPuto said:

Well, Ohaguro is extra mobile vs summoners, but doesn't fix the problem. The other suggestions are probably ok.

She fixes the problem when most Summoners rely on Df triggers to live, so you can use the summons to jump pad her into putting the summoner in her aura, then kill the summoner.

[Jinn]

21 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

She fixes the problem when most Summoners rely on Df triggers to live, so you can use the summons to jump pad her into putting the summoner in her aura, then kill the summoner.

Nicodem is 14wds, Impossible to Wound right? Not exactly squishy. Ramos still has Armour +2. Sandeep has 12wds, Impossible to Wound, arcane shield and probably Armour +1. Hamelin's heal on death isn't a trigger, it's an ability. Dreamer should go down a little easier without the Df trigger, but he can just not take his summoning upgrade and outactivate you with daydreams and be on 10wds Incorporeal. Summoners are just usually insanely tanky, even without triggers. Most of them have impossible to wound which means that Ohaguro Bettari is probably doing 2 or 3 damage per attack, which is not enough.

She could probably kill Kirai though. Colette also cries upon seeing Bettari.

[santaclaws01]

8 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Nicodem is 14wds, Impossible to Wound right? Not exactly squishy. Ramos still has Armour +2. Sandeep has 12wds, Impossible to Wound, arcane shield and probably Armour +1. Hamelin's heal on death isn't a trigger, it's an ability. Dreamer should go down a little easier without the Df trigger, but he can just not take his summoning upgrade and outactivate you with daydreams and be on 10wds Incorporeal. Summoners are just usually insanely tanky, even without triggers. Most of them have impossible to wound which means that Ohaguro Bettari is probably doing 2 or 3 damage per attack, which is not enough.

She could probably kill Kirai though. Colette also cries upon seeing Bettari.

Ohaguro isn't the big threat, she just enables whatever your big threat is to do its thing.

[Jinn]

2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Ohaguro isn't the big threat, she just enables whatever your big threat is to do its thing.

Yeah, I can see Ohaguro Bettari + Yasunori being decently threatening to Nicodem for example, but I don't know if she's worth it if you don't bring some summoning of your own which allows you to get her up the board on turn 1 as a threat. I think Bettari is better at killing several smaller models with annoying defensive triggers rather than helping take down a bigger model or master. 8+SS is a lot to pay for turning off defensive triggers, and if you can't chain activate then your opponent (who is probably outactivating you, which is the problem) probably has a way to manoeuvre the target away from Bettari (lures for example) or out of range of the Yasunori (unless it's in a McCabe crew, in which case good luck with that).

I think Asami is your best bet if you need to outactivate/meet your opponent's activation count. That or a hound McCabe list.

So, yeah, I think Bettari is better as a flanker than as a combo to kill the opponents master, especially given how much outactivation is going to hurt her if she attacks a summoners bubble (due to how squishy she is). With Asami though, she can actually wait until the enemies threats have activated and then be really annoying to deal with.

I haven't used her against Nicodem or Arcanists personally, so this is just what I expect would happen based on how I've used her in other match ups. I could be way off.

[Jesy Blue]

No, I don't use her for the master, I use her for the summons.  They appear, you place her in base contact with them, now they have to try to disengage from her to do what they were summoner for.

Same thing with Taelor.  They arrive, she charges; they are either dead or engaged.

[DonCheadle]

Isn't that what we got Charm Warders for these days? 

[ElPuto]

54 minutes ago, DonCheadle said:

Isn't that what we got Charm Warders for these days? 

They're useful for sure, but they don't seem tanky enough to mess up with your opponents plan. Btw, 2 damages from Entropy don't kill anyone, even if many summons come into play damaged yet.

[ElPuto]

3 hours ago, Jinn said:

Nicodem is 14wds, Impossible to Wound right? Not exactly squishy. Ramos still has Armour +2. Sandeep has 12wds, Impossible to Wound, arcane shield and probably Armour +1. Hamelin's heal on death isn't a trigger, it's an ability. Dreamer should go down a little easier without the Df trigger, but he can just not take his summoning upgrade and outactivate you with daydreams and be on 10wds Incorporeal. Summoners are just usually insanely tanky, even without triggers. Most of them have impossible to wound which means that Ohaguro Bettari is probably doing 2 or 3 damage per attack, which is not enough.

She could probably kill Kirai though. Colette also cries upon seeing Bettari.

Always wondered why summoners are so tanky tho. Probably because if they die, the list will fold easy.

[santaclaws01]

8 minutes ago, ElPuto said:

They're useful for sure, but they don't seem tanky enough to mess up with your opponents plan. Btw, 2 damages from Entropy don't kill anyone, even if many summons come into play damaged yet.

4 damage from entropy can.

[ElPuto]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

4 damage from entropy can.

One puts up to Entropy +2, so I won't pretend to have 10 points in the same bubble to get Entropy +4. And again, I won't say they can max Entropy with their Casting, 'cause probably they're already dead at that point. 6 Wd with Df 5 is not going to tank anything, especially vs summoning lists where buffs are spread around.

 

[Jesy Blue]

10 minutes ago, ElPuto said:

Always wondered why summoners are so tanky tho. Probably because if they die, the list will fold easy.

Then why isn't Asami as tanky?

Hard to Kill, 10 wounds, no armor, no ability to get armor, a 0 action heal that requires setup and resources and a moderate flip.  Sounds kind of pathetic when put it next to the previous short list of summoners abilities.  

[ElPuto]

Just now, Jesy Blue said:

Then why isn't Asami as tanky?

Hard to Kill, 10 wounds, no armor, no ability to get armor, a 0 action heal that requires setup and resources and a moderate flip.  Sounds kind of pathetic when put it next to the previous short list of summoners abilities.  

Probably the only example I can think of, and in 10T you've many heals and buff to cover her. Misdirection, Disguised or Vanished, ending conditions with LRM. Not too shabby.

[ElPuto]

6 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Typically, I use Brewmaster, so the number of things in my Drinking Party bubble doesn't matter.

And forgot to ask, but what's your Brewie's idea of list into summoners? A typical one? Do you prefer debuffing your enemies with Swill or Poison them to death? Drinking Contest all night long or your beaters have to wash their hands in opponent's blood?

[santaclaws01]

24 minutes ago, ElPuto said:

One puts up to Entropy +2, so I won't pretend to have 10 points in the same bubble to get Entropy +4. And again, I won't say they can max Entropy with their Casting, 'cause probably they're already dead at that point. 6 Wd with Df 5 is not going to tank anything, especially vs summoning lists where buffs are spread around.

 

I mean the model will die starting it's 2nd activation. So the opponent is choosing between 1 activation from it or spending resources to get rid of entropy

[ElPuto]

3 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

 

I mean the model will die starting it's 2nd activation. So the opponent is choosing between 1 activation from it or spending resources to get rid of entropy

Again, Warders are not a bad choice. Probably still not the solution I needed. Maybe Toshiro with Mei? A bit of activations more, some tankiness, more jumps around. A lot of resources needed tho.

[KingCrow]

Toshiro + Mechanized Porkchop = 1 Komainu a round. Komainu's are great for tanky minions that can actually hit well.  Also, look at bringing the Obsidian Statue for easy Scrap Markers as well plus the ability to hit hard and hold an area.  And bring an Obsidian Oni for an auto-trigger on a non-randomizing cast to drop scrap markers. 

[ElPuto]

4 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

Toshiro + Mechanized Porkchop = 1 Komainu a round. Komainu's are great for tanky minions that can actually hit well.  Also, look at bringing the Obsidian Statue for easy Scrap Markers as well plus the ability to hit hard and hold an area.  And bring an Obsidian Oni for an auto-trigger on a non-randomizing cast to drop scrap markers. 

You need a 9+, but as I said, resources intensive plan.

[KingCrow]

I think Sparks would actually be great vs Ramos and his spiders.  Sparks can make it so that models that have Moderate/Severe damage done to them add  which can help clear mass amounts of models.  With Mei gaining positives to burning models, it gives her a good chance to get the Mod/Severe damage.  It just sucks that her min damage is two so any spiders would only suffer one damage because of the armor. I really feel like her fancy Tiger Claws attack need to ignore armor.

6 minutes ago, ElPuto said:

You need a 9+, but as I said, resources intensive plan.

A 9+  iirc but you might only be using it once per turn, maybe more if you have more scrap markers.  Plus, Toshiro can stone for the suit if needed.  I understand what you're saying though.  Mei is so card intensive that giving up even a 9 could hurt.  

[Jesy Blue]

36 minutes ago, ElPuto said:

And forgot to ask, but what's your Brewie's idea of list into summoners? A typical one? Do you prefer debuffing your enemies with Swill or Poison them to death? Drinking Contest all night long or your beaters have to wash their hands in opponent's blood?

Typically for summoners I run Brewmaster, Sensei Yu, and Emissary.  2 Wp flips to do anything, Swill (or Binge if there's an easy mark), everyone takes 4 points of damage to poison, my scheme runners do what needs to be done.

 

[meows0r]

On 2/11/2018 at 4:39 PM, KingCrow said:

I think Sparks would actually be great vs Ramos and his spiders.  Sparks can make it so that models that have Moderate/Severe damage done to them add  which can help clear mass amounts of models.  With Mei gaining positives to burning models, it gives her a good chance to get the Mod/Severe damage.  It just sucks that her min damage is two so any spiders would only suffer one damage because of the armor. I really feel like her fancy Tiger Claws attack need to ignore armor.

A 9+  iirc but you might only be using it once per turn, maybe more if you have more scrap markers.  Plus, Toshiro can stone for the suit if needed.  I understand what you're saying though.  Mei is so card intensive that giving up even a 9 could hurt.  

The Hard Worker Upgrade can let Mei ignore Armor for a 0, and Sparks can carry it. I think Mei + Sparks + Kang/Taelor (or Toshiro for your own activation control) is a decent solution.

[KingCrow]

15 hours ago, meows0r said:

The Hard Worker Upgrade can let Mei ignore Armor for a 0, and Sparks can carry it. I think Mei + Sparks + Kang/Taelor (or Toshiro for your own activation control) is a decent solution.

The only issue with the upgrade is that it requires you to discard cards.  Mei is already so card hungry as it is that it is quite hard to justify bringing Hard Worker. Mei need a good card engine to get effective use out of that upgrade, and in general really.  Maybe a Crime Boss (especially with handing out Fragile) would be a good idea to bring. 

[newsun]

On 2/11/2018 at 12:59 PM, ElPuto said:

Probably the only example I can think of, and in 10T you've many heals and buff to cover her. Misdirection, Disguised or Vanished, ending conditions with LRM. Not too shabby.

This is terrible. This discussion is about summoners who are bringing extra activations and the ability to shrug off most assassination runs with innate abilities and 10t gets to use their less activations to maybe heal back up? It does illuminate further some issues the faction has though.

Now this is not saying it's all doom and gloom as Asami certainly has game with summons who charge the turn they arrive and her mobility is stellar and this can be done without resources, there is just some planning around flickering out which needs to be taken into account.