Being in base contact with marker with "dense" trait

[Cedar]

Hello all, I have one question regarding being in base contact with marker that has "dense" trait - can a model be in base contact WITH the marker and not be considered to be IN the forest? I found only this answer:

I still have doubts about Grootslang and said markers - can Grootslang be with base contact with forest marker (and gain his bonuses of being in base contact with a terrain marker) and somehow be outside of the forest, so enemies couldn't draw LOS through markers to it?

[santaclaws01]

No, if you're only touching the base(no overlap) you aren't inside of the dense terrain and can't see through to the other side and vice versa. If being in base contact with terrain counted as being inside of terrain then you could never be in base contact with impassable terrain.

[santaclaws01]

24 minutes ago, Carecalmo said:

My solution is to let base contact count as entering terrain, especially for impassable terrain with other/relevant terrain traits. I don't see why you can't play dense the same way.

Because if you start counting base contact as being inside the game starts breaking down in a lot of places with entire abilities or actions becoming impossible or parts of actions requiring impossible scenarios to have an effect. You can't climb up something that's impassable because you can't actually be in base contact with it to climb it. Phiona Gage's ability Right At Home is half useless because she can never be in base contact with impassable terrain. Actions like Fling on the Conflux of Infamy where it has an effect if the model ends the push in base contact with impassable terrain could never happen. Cyclops can't put down Ice Wall markers anymore because it would be placing impassable terrain on top of itself. If we want to take this to its logical conclusion then no two models can ever be in base contact with each other, as you are broadening the definition of being in something to just touching something.


 If there is no overlap you are not in something. You can be in base contact without having any overlap.
 

33 minutes ago, Carecalmo said:

The reason I bring up hazardous terrain is that it too only counts for models entering it, which makes a lot of hazardous terrain kind of weird. How do you play a huge cactus or a spiked fence? If it is impassable, you cannot enter it and take damage from it, but if it is not, you have find a way to let models stand on top of it/be inside it. 

You play an impassable huge cactus or spiked fence by house ruling it so that they can work. You don't get to just decide that the rules of a game work a different way so that something irrelevant can work or that a word has a completely different definition.

[Ludvig]

11 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Hello all, I have one question regarding being in base contact with marker that has "dense" trait - can a model be in base contact WITH the marker and not be considered to be IN the forest? I found only this answer:

I still have doubts about Grootslang and said markers - can Grootslang be with base contact with forest marker (and gain his bonuses of being in base contact with a terrain marker) and somehow be outside of the forest, so enemies couldn't draw LOS through markers to it?

We have always played it that if you are touching the dense terrain you can see and be seen.

[solkan]

On the Warmachine/Hordes forum, there's a pretty big distinction between being "in" an area and being "touching" the area.  So that you apply the same standard to models--physically touching does not automatically mean overlapping and being in--to a model and a marker.

That's not to say there isn't pushback due to the whole business about distances being within, but it's where the distinction was made.

[Morgan Vening]

On 2/9/2018 at 8:16 PM, Ludvig said:

We have always played it that if you are touching the dense terrain you can see and be seen.

I'd do it in the same manner in which you're supposed to handle intervening a 30mm base between two other 30mm bases, to block LOS. You move it as close as possible, and then inform your opponent of the exact situation you're putting your model in, so that there's no ambiguity when they declare an action thinking otherwise.

When you move that close to dense terrain, you declare whether you're moving in, even ever so slightly, or staying out.

So, in the case of the Grootslang, or just the LOS stuff, it's all or nothing. The idea of getting some benefits, without the accompanying penalties (or vice versa), would be just wrong.

[Carecalmo]

I would play being in base contact with dense terrain as being inside it. Same for hazardous terrain.

On 2/9/2018 at 3:22 PM, santaclaws01 said:

No, if you're only touching the base(no overlap) you aren't inside of the dense terrain and can't see through to the other side and vice versa. If being in base contact with terrain counted as being inside of terrain then you could never be in base contact with impassable terrain.

The reason I bring up hazardous terrain is that it too only counts for models entering it, which makes a lot of hazardous terrain kind of weird. How do you play a huge cactus or a spiked fence? If it is impassable, you cannot enter it and take damage from it, but if it is not, you have find a way to let models stand on top of it/be inside it. 

My solution is to let base contact count as entering terrain, especially for impassable terrain with other/relevant terrain traits. I don't see why you can't play dense the same way.

[WWHSD]

On 2/10/2018 at 11:02 AM, Carecalmo said:

I would play being in base contact with dense terrain as being inside it. Same for hazardous terrain.

The reason I bring up hazardous terrain is that it too only counts for models entering it, which makes a lot of hazardous terrain kind of weird. How do you play a huge cactus or a spiked fence? If it is impassable, you cannot enter it and take damage from it, but if it is not, you have find a way to let models stand on top of it/be inside it. 

My solution is to let base contact count as entering terrain, especially for impassable terrain with other/relevant terrain traits. I don't see why you can't play dense the same way.

You'd make the objects climbable and impassable.