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iamthefly

Put off playing as Brewmaster

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Take a look under the section: "What we are NOT good at"

Brewmaster is a versatile and in my opinion underrated master. It is not easy to set it up, because you need many models that support it, but he is worth a look.

What counter the playstyle in general is exactly that kind of interception models that annoy me. I had some player throwing an izamu at me, so even disengaging strikes with swill had a straight. That complicated things by a lot. Generally spreading out is a good way. Also, obstacles like pillars are VERY annoying. Generally condition removal is very good. Lady justice for example can clear out everything with 1 ability and that destroys brewie pretty hard.

 

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7 minutes ago, Lokibri said:

Take a look under the section: "What we are NOT good at"

Brewmaster is a versatile and in my opinion underrated master. It is not easy to set it up, because you need many models that support it, but he is worth a look.

What counter the playstyle in general is exactly that kind of interception models that annoy me. I had some player throwing an izamu at me, so even disengaging strikes with swill had a straight. That complicated things by a lot. Generally spreading out is a good way. Also, obstacles like pillars are VERY annoying. Generally condition removal is very good. Lady justice for example can clear out everything with 1 ability and that destroys brewie pretty hard.

 

If you have the drinking contest aura up on a swilled Izamu he would still need to pass that on a negative I think so disengaging should be possible.

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6 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

If you have the drinking contest aura up on a swilled Izamu he would still need to pass that on a negative I think so disengaging should be possible.

Oh, yes. You are totally right. Thanks.

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31 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

If you have the drinking contest aura up on a swilled Izamu he would still need to pass that on a negative I think so disengaging should be possible.

Izamu is ruthless. I lost a brewie game once because I forgot to factor that in. No drinking contest for samurai ghosties.

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@Cadaver_Junkie

Nice to hear from an, actual Brewie player! It's been a while since I faced him so I haven't seen all his latest tricks but it looked like he had a similar thing going even after wave 5.

It still looks to me like Brewie is vulnerable if he doesn't go first in a turn and wants people in his aura rather than outside. Swill is until the end of the turn so any activation before Brewmaster will not be at negatives. I'd be interested to hear what sort of workaround you have that's so effective that you're not stressed about losing initiative.

I don't really plan around Brewmaster being the heavy hitting support model in my crew. There are so many other models you can include in a Tri-Chi based list that bounce synergy off each other, Brewmaster is effectively a bonus. A very powerful bonus if he's working right. At least, this is how I plan my lists.

So if I lose Brewmaster, I'm not really worried. I'll get another from Wesley half the time anyway. And maybe summon a second Wesley while I'm at it!

Fingers will score and ruin schemes
A Performer can assist Fingers in scheme ruination
Whiskey golem and Swine-Cursed will do damage when/as required
Moon Shinobi will lend valuable melee and scheme support in any of the above
Akaname and Tanuki will lend buffing support to the team
 

And they all buff each other. Well, maybe not the Swine-Cursed, but those guys are fantastic anyway. And two Swine-Cursed smacking into a twice swilled target? Ouch.

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

They got errata at the same time, this is the reviewed model. :D 

He is oppressive if you don't have condition removal but so are a lot of crews I think. If the opponent can remove Swill I'm not sure he's that horrible to face. 

True.

Which means there have been games where Brewmaster has activated second last or even actually last in my crew, just because there weren't any great targets to choose immediately and after losing initiative. If I can't rely on Swill, he's still a pretty good Obey master - and  all that poison everywhere makes it fairly reliable with his new upgrade. Just have an Akaname spit poison on two of your heavy hitters (or your opponent's) then obey them for attacks.

Extra triggered charges in the case of obeyed Swine-Cursed or Rooster Riders can be fun - managed some total carnage once with two Swine-Cursed via Obey, even though Brewmaster pretty much activated last. I actually hid Brewie much of that game.

Or simply move models away or towards scoring schemes! In conjunction with Fingers and a Performer, you can completely frustrate your opponents ability to score on many schemes and strats. Sometimes this is a lot more powerful than even Swill or his aura. Even summoning a Wesley as your last crew's activation has won me a game, 'cos the newly summoned Wesley is a scoring model.

I also keep Sparks around if my spidey sense indicates an opponent may bring lots of condition removal.

 

Brewmaster isn't the most classically powerful Gremlin master, but I think he can face most enemy crews and have a reasonable chance of success. He's like, pure blue deck to those MTG players our there.

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16 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

Izamu is ruthless. I lost a brewie game once because I forgot to factor that in. No drinking contest for samurai ghosties.

But that is only during his activation. A disengaging strike is normally not during its activation.

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22 minutes ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

Brewmaster isn't the most classically powerful Gremlin master, but I think he can face most enemy crews and have a reasonable chance of success. He's like, pure blue deck to those MTG players our there.

Hahah, jeah. Love you for that quote :D. BUt i think some Arcanists are even closer to that feeling with card draw.

 

I just want to add: Whiskey Golem is a serious threat with Tanuki on reactivate and self-healing upgrade. Especially hitting him and his auto def trigger can cause harmful trouble when brewie follows. Be aware of that :)

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1 minute ago, Lokibri said:

I just want to add: Whiskey Golem is a serious threat with Tanuki on reactivate and self-healing upgrade. Especially hitting him and his auto def trigger can cause harmful trouble when brewie follows. Be aware of that :)

True! And isn't it just nice that Fingers gives out exactly 3 poison when he punches?

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12 minutes ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

True! And isn't it just nice that Fingers gives out exactly 3 poison when he punches?

That is indeed a very nice add. I played Fingers in a Symbols of authority game with my gf last week and Fingers was THE MVP. He did EVERYTHING for me. Recklessly running to the opponent, picking up a flag, running back to my symbols and chatting with everyone while healing and going defensive all day long (for 2-3 turns) it was AWESOME!

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@Cadaver_Junkie

Low tier in this game is basically what you are describing. It's not about not having any chance but being slightly harder to grasp the optimal play style for.

The original post sounded like the player had been completely outplayed and ended the game turn 2 because the entire crew was in Brewies bubble incapacitated and it felt like an overpowring master. Your suggested play style doesn't sound like something that would cause that kind of reaction, most players would probably just feel that they were outplayed by a good opponent.

Hating Fingers is something any sane gremlin opponent should learn to do but the post didn't even mention fingers so he might not have been in the game even. I always laugh when people say fingers is overcosted or bad. If there is onr model in this game that can score you six vp while denying st lrast three it's fingers.

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11 hours ago, ElPuto said:

What do you usually play with him?

I play themeatic brewmaster in friendlies and a more serious one in tournaments. I think it’s important to note I take him in marker/interact heavy pools 

For friendlies

brewie with stilts/hide I the mud, drinking problem and running tab if I want Tanuki (which I usually do)

wesley

whiskey golem

-barrel up

fingers

Mix of moon shinobi or Tanuki depending if I want more death or more markers

i have a LOT of fun with this list utilizing an underused upgrade that means I very rarely suffer casualties.

for serious games

brewie 

-stilts/hide in the mud

-running tab

 

golem

-barrel up/drinking problem

fingers

francois/trixie

-dirty cheater

raphael/sammy

-dirty cheater/binge

x2 Tanuki 

I have 3 versions of this list, one more offensive, another defensive and I take drinking problem if quick murder or eliminate is in the pool.

Ive never compared lists with other brewie player (I’m the only gremlin out of the 60 people that play tourneys in my area) so I don’t know how you’d read this but I can assure you I’ve never dropped a game with him yet!

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, DanteJH said:

I play themeatic brewmaster in friendlies and a more serious one in tournaments. I think it’s important to note I take him in marker/interact heavy pools 

For friendlies

brewie with stilts/hide I the mud, drinking problem and running tab if I want Tanuki (which I usually do)

wesley

whiskey golem

-barrel up

fingers

Mix of moon shinobi or Tanuki depending if I want more death or more markers

i have a LOT of fun with this list utilizing an underused upgrade that means I very rarely suffer casualties.

for serious games

brewie 

-stilts/hide in the mud

-running tab

 

golem

-barrel up/drinking problem

fingers

francois/trixie

-dirty cheater

raphael/sammy

-dirty cheater/binge

x2 Tanuki 

I have 3 versions of this list, one more offensive, another defensive and I take drinking problem if quick murder or eliminate is in the pool.

Ive never compared lists with other brewie player (I’m the only gremlin out of the 60 people that play tourneys in my area) so I don’t know how you’d read this but I can assure you I’ve never dropped a game with him yet!

 

 

 

Wonderful, thanks mate!

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On ‎04‎.‎02‎.‎2018 at 10:42 AM, iamthefly said:

Brewie can resummon Wesley, who can resummon Brewie.

Just as a quick confrimation for myself: If you resummon Brewie, he loses his upgrades, right? So there is no eternal cycle of Wesley resummoning Brewie, who will resummon Wesley, who will resummon Brewie, who will resummon wesley etc. etc. not that it would be that likely anyway... but I'd like to make sure

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As per the rulebook: "Summoning creates a new model." 

Any upgrades, conditions etc. on a previously existing Brewmaster don't get transferred to the new Brewmaster unless an action or ability specifically states otherwise. They are, after all, two entirely different models.

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On 19/02/2018 at 8:26 PM, Davie said:

Just as a quick confrimation for myself: If you resummon Brewie, he loses his upgrades, right? So there is no eternal cycle of Wesley resummoning Brewie, who will resummon Wesley, who will resummon Brewie, who will resummon wesley etc. etc. not that it would be that likely anyway... but I'd like to make sure

That's correct. In addition, Brewmaster can only summon Wesley once, as the upgrade discards itself when used.

I suppose it's possible in 10T Brewmaster, using a Terracotta Warrior, but that seems prohibitively expensive.

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I once had brewmaster swill and trap both viks in his drinking contest aura along with 2 other models. My opponent's heart was destroyed, but he played on and won the game because unless i won initiative every turn i couldn't keep that up and he could stone for enough :+fate to hit even on swills and kill me unless i had double swill on that model. Brewmaster also applies all this scariness in a very small area. If by some miracle i faced a foe that couldn't kill the brewmaster, they would usually just go to other parts of the board and kill everything there.

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On 17/03/2018 at 7:21 PM, Nukemouse said:

I once had brewmaster swill and trap both viks in his drinking contest aura along with 2 other models. My opponent's heart was destroyed, but he played on and won the game because unless i won initiative every turn i couldn't keep that up and he could stone for enough :+fate to hit even on swills and kill me unless i had double swill on that model. Brewmaster also applies all this scariness in a very small area. If by some miracle i faced a foe that couldn't kill the brewmaster, they would usually just go to other parts of the board and kill everything there.

The Drinking Contest really isn't the main game for Brewmaster. I think we've all made that mistake. It's a really nice tarpit when it works, but it's just not reliable enough as a crew-control option unless you've got both Mancha Roja (for Challenge and gremlin-whacking) and Trixibelle (for Ill Omens and Buy You A Drink?) in your list, and a few other ways of dragging models back into the bubble.

A crew that can't kill enemies is just playing for time. In a pinch, if you're in the sort of situation you described, there's You're Drunk, Go Home as a way of dealing with an over-abundance of swords and Stilts to dodge one big hit. They can buy enough time to save Brewie - or at least, to get Wesley in range to replace him.

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Brewie won't pull that off against the viks, since they won't attack if they cant get to at least straight flip and brewie does not have 8 DF.

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2 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

Brewie won't pull that off against the viks, since they won't attack if they cant get to at least straight flip and brewie does not have 8 DF.

... and half the time positive flip on Wp. 

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I find the idea "Drinking Contest isn't brewmaster's game" a bit frustrating. If that's not his gimmick, what is? He can lower WP yes but as he's not in ressurectionists or neverborn he isn't exactly flooded with models that love to target wp. He can discard cards from the opponent's hand, but he's hardly the only master or the best one that can do that. He can't obey nearly as well as Zoraida or Hamelin and only comes out even with Perdita! That really just leaves his swill, which is a nice ability but falls short compared to masters that can spend their AP to inflict the "killed" condition or to paralyze. Drinking contest is his only control effect actually comparable to other master's abilities, as it's a 0 that can disable multiple enemy AP.

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8 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

I find the idea "Drinking Contest isn't brewmaster's game" a bit frustrating. If that's not his gimmick, what is?

It's not his *main* game.

Debuff, support and disruption is his main game. Drinking Contest is part of that, but it's the part that puts him directly in harm's way. It drains your opponent's resources and hand, but it works most effectively when you're tossing out Swills like candy.

Also, don't underestimate the power of Drinking Contest when combined with Binge and Swill. Negatives to literally every flip a model makes is a huge deal. Brewmaster gives them out at range, and easily. A Swilled model in a Drinking Contest is probably doing nothing but boozing that turn. Binge and any Mask (with or without Wesley) is a cheap Obey for your own model, without the restrictions. Against a trapped model, Swill and Binge lets you focus down a target far more easily than if Brewmaster wasn't crippling them.

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My point is it is his "main" game, because its the only part on his card that actually does debuff and disruption as well as other masters. I've had situations where contest has worked before, but having to spend all my AP, be in a perfect position, have all the enemy models be already poisoned usually in order to be as effective as molly or rasputina just outright paralyzing is awful.

Bingeing yourself for extra AP is just doing a less effective version of what collodi, lucius, collette etc already do. Swill does help you focus on a target thats true, but other masters just outright kill the enemy they spent the AP on instead, or provide comparable benefits. Jack Daw's curse ncreases the damage taken by a target and it also does some damage of his own, when jacob lynch fires a coated bullet it's just as much of a death sentence as swill and Von Schill can lower your DF for the rest of the game, whilst doing actual damage himself and being much harder to take off the table. If we get into the masters that can kill 2+ models a turn we quickly see why "swilling" 2+ models a turn isn't really very impressive, especially when you have to activate first to get these benefits.

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34 minutes ago, Nukemouse said:

 If we get into the masters that can kill 2+ models a turn we quickly see why "swilling" 2+ models a turn isn't really very impressive, especially when you have to activate first to get these benefits.

I don't really get your point. So, he is not killy. And yes, other masters do this and that. But I like Brewmaster for what he is and for what he brings to the table. I mean... if I  want to play a killy master I don't go for Brewy.

I don't see much use in comparisons between different masters. There will never be an Equilibrium when it comes to what is balanced and what is not. Imbalance is inherently part of a game with different factions, especially with so many different factions. And I like that. It brings flavor and fluff. Don't get my wrong, in my group I play fairly competetive and I am not too fond of losing games.

But in the end it comes down to whether I have fun with the way a Faction/Master/Model plays or not.

 

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Control masters and killy masters aren't the same thing, but if a control master cant control things better than a killy master, that is an inherent flaw in their design.

Whilst i might come off as all doom and gloom, Brewmaster has quickly become by far my favorite master and i very rarely use my outcast or ressur models anymore because of how much i prefer him. That doesn't mean i should be ignorant of his weaknesses or dismiss balance concerns as "unavoidable". There is a difference between minor balance problems and the issues facing kaeris and brewmaster.

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