What to collect to go with Seamus

[Skylifter-1000]

Hey guys, I'm trying to complete a few master's crew collections, and I was wondering what people usually use with Seamus.

So far I've got his Box, the Dead Doxies, Yin, the Hanged, and Crooligans from Molly's Box that I consider to be part of his usual crew.

Anything else you often take with him that I might want to add to that? 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Carrion Emissary

Asura Rotten

Kentauri

Little Gassers

Cassandra

Angelica

Performers

Ice Dancers

[unti]

Why would you take a Little gasser? Because of pull my finger, or am i missing something else?

[Skylifter-1000]

The Showgirl upgrade models are an interesting point, I hadn't thought of that.

But what synergy or fluff connection is there with Asura Roten? 

[Fetid Strumpet]

You take little gassers for cheap actionless dmg and pull my finger.

Asura works well with Seamus in a number of ways:

Actionless wp duels when she activates against those near her markers.

She makes Belles (and all undead) respectable hitters by letting use her ok ml attack rather then their bad one.

Hands from below is the big deal because all your undead in range can use it, so models like Crooligans who generally don’t have anything useful to do turn 1 can actually be threatening. As can every undead in range to Asura because it’s a 10” range ml attack. So every undead in your crew just became very threatening. It works well especially with Seamus because his big dmg is so unreliable. He only has Sh 6 and can only use it once a turn, so a smart opponent will save a card to make it likely the really threatening shot likely fails each turn. However if you drain the opponent’s defense that becomes less effective.

So when you toss out Hands Below attacks in volume, especially from models that wouldn’t otherwise actually threaten the opponent, you put a good deal of pressure on them. The shear volume of attacks coming in mean that you are going to have at least a few flip higher to start, which forks the opponent. Either cheat against an attack that isn’t doing dmg and my not matter that it works, thus draining their hand, or let it through and lessen the impact of every card in hand if that model gets attacked.

Thats good for Seamus because if he shoots a model that has only 1 hands below stacked on it it makes his fun effectively sh7, with it going up from there. But also it makes other models in his creway more deadly. The CCK becomes a great deal more scary as your defense drops. His problem has always been that he can’t connect reliably. That becomes less of an issue once you’ve stacked a negative defense buff on a model.

Additinally the CCKs death strike becomes more effective the lower the crow he is required to use to actually hit the enemy model. Same for Sybelle (if you actually take her any more).

 

[Skylifter-1000]

Sounds awesome, never looked at it with Seamus. 

What is CCK, though? 

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

Copy cat killer, I suppose. 

In addition to what @Fetid Strumpet said, Asura can give you a mindless zombie, who counts as a corpse for Seamus (to summon off or to corpse bloat) 

[Skylifter-1000]

Oh, yeah... I probably should have guessed that. Silly me. 

Anyway, thanks a lot for those tips - I'll be sure to try her out. 

[thewrathchilde]

I like Anna Lovelace also- she gives some card cycle, a decent ranged CA, reduces opponent's movement shenanigans, and can potentially help out with Seamus's summons by getting mindless zombies to provide the corpse markers from her CA. 

 

[PirateCaptain]

I second Anna, she also has the trigger on her ranged attack to trigger horror duels which is super good

[tomhorstmann]

I've never played Seamus but Wave 5 is making me very curious. What upgrades do people consider running on Seamus? Sinister Reputation looks like a must take; is it? What about Mad Haberdasher? Red Chapel Killer seems unnecessary in a world of Carrion Emissaries. Corpse Bloat and Decaying Aura both seem like they have value as well. Are there specific scoring pools or matchups that make you take one situational upgrade over another?

[thewrathchilde]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 10:24 PM, tomhorstmann said:

I've never played Seamus but Wave 5 is making me very curious. What upgrades do people consider running on Seamus? Sinister Reputation looks like a must take; is it? What about Mad Haberdasher? Red Chapel Killer seems unnecessary in a world of Carrion Emissaries. Corpse Bloat and Decaying Aura both seem like they have value as well. Are there specific scoring pools or matchups that make you take one situational upgrade over another?

There are a couple of his upgrades that I think are really good but a lot of them are situational depending on the match (strats/schemes). I like Sinister Reputation- it's my "always" and is even better now that Live For Pain got a melee attack also. The -2 WP Aura is really good since he is terrifying, a lot of your other models that may be close to him are too, and there are a lot of WP based duels you can add into his crew to capitalize on it as well. In games where players are forced to group in the middle (strat/scheme/terrain) he can cover a significant amount of space with the aura enhancing the effectiveness of quite a few of your other models/affects. However, it is a limited upgrade and I know a lot of other players Prefer Bag of Tools because is a MI 7 attack with a good damage track and good triggers on about every suit (though you need 2 x Crow for that trigger).

Red Chapel Killer adds flexibility to his Back Alley (port to scheme marker instead of blocking terrain) and lets him take it even when he is within LOS (if you discard a corpse token) but I am not a big fan of it. You can get movement tricks with Belles/Doxies and even a few other models without using an upgrade slot on this or use other models to block LOS so he can teleport. Being able to teleport to the scheme marker does give him a lot more choices but a lot of times either I can get him there through other means or don't have something ready (without pre-planning) to position the scheme marker ahead of time. Additionally early game (turn 1 and 2) if I can get them I prefer to use the corpse markers to summon and later he is more likely close enough to the action I don't need the Back Alley to get him there.

Mat Haberdasher gives you the free save from big damage and can be a good insurance plan against a big beater or a Red Joker and without a doubt makes him even more survivable. However, at 2 SS, if I have a couple of SS left over I often find myself considering dropping it to squeeze an extra model in my crew. I go back and forth on this- if you do lose Seamus in a game invariably you are going to second guess yourself and wish you had taken it because often times if he can survive an attack you can almost always have something nearby to get some WP duels going to heal him back up..... but in many games when he is spreading fear and your other stuff is attacking WP he stays healed up and with Impossible to Wound, Hard to Kill, and Soulstones only something really big with a lot of AP is likely to take him down in one round.

Decaying Aura is another one I struggle with as well. For 2 SS I almost never take it (or consider it). The ability to shut down healing is nice but the SS start is very situational. Against most of the models in an opponents crew it isn't going to have any real benefit and if you intend to go after a SS user you can just load enough AP against them to get through it or wait until you have bled their resources.

Corpse Bloat can be really cool/useful depending on your build and the game. In conjunction with Sinister Reputation, in a game that requires things to group in the middle it is like setting off a bomb if you do it late in the turn if your opponent doesn't have the cards to ensure he passes the WP duels. If there aren't any corpse markers available then you can use the (0) action to get your own marker and then blow it up, if there are already corpse markers around then he can do it multiple times. And Unforgiving Stench has a range of 8" so he doesn't have to be in the middle of things to use it but of course if he is then you can get the benefit of Sinister Reputation as well.

Obviously there are other upgrades that are worth taking and synergize well with either each other, these, or other things he is taking in his crew but in the interest of not making this too long I just hit on the upgrades you asked about. The matchup piece I talked a little, mainly within the context of whether a strat/scheme requires crews to group instead of spread out.

[PirateCaptain]

So, I used to not be a fan of Seamus, he just didn't seem to do what I wanted him to.  But the errata and GG18 I think pull him to a reasonable point.

I've played 2 games with him since the errata, so not a huge pool, but I've noticed a couple things.

GG18 really likes models that have a lot of survivability, and Seamus is freaking brutal to put down, especially with his change.

The ability to heal off of a melee attack is really really strong, combine that with mad haberdasher, boo so he can force horror duels (that he can and hurt off of) and he's virtually unkillable.

I've taken Mad Haberdasher, Sinister Reputation, and Do You Know Who I Am.  (I also played a game with AKA SB instead of the hat, it's good, but i like the hat for my gameplan)

Basically, Seamus can just teleport or charge into the middle of everything, attack, boo (if what you want to kill succeeds hit it with the damage from DYK) and push it off and shoot.  If he hits all the attacks and they pass the horror duel he can do a min of 8-10 damage with just min damages.  But more importantly, they're gonna have to spend so much effort to kill him back, his staying power is just so high.
 

For example, he weathered a round of combat from Reva and Archie, healed up to full and left archie on like 3 wounds if I remember correctly.  

I don't know if he breaks into my top 3 masters in faction (Reva, Kirai, Nico in no particular order), but he's definitely someone i'll consider more often than I had before.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not totally in agreement with the above, but it is a good look from one perspective and definitely worth reading.

Personal opinions:

Bag O' Tools:  There was a period when I thought the Bag was strictly better in a win the game scenario, because it was a relatively rare ability to be able to drop scheme markers on command as part of another action, and there was less restriction on scheme markers needing to be so far apart to score. With the changes in the way schemes and VP have evolved I really don't see what you actually gain by taking this upgrade. The ML7 is absolutely great, but the dmg track is pretty meh for a master, and it has anti synergy with everything else he does. If you're in Melee you're going to have trouble getting to use the one good attack he has each turn. His ability to heal is lowered because winning your WP duels is harder. And the triggers are nice, but pretty *yawn* inducing for a stone, a limited upgrade slot, and everything else they do. Theme wise I love this and really wish this was the way to play him, as a hidden knife based killer in the dark. But it just really isn't effective anymore so my advice would be to ignore that this upgrade even exists.

Sinister Reputation: Auto take. This was always my preferred upgrade because a large draw to Seamus, for me, is his aura of spookiness. Being able to make his healing easier by making it easier to win wp duels, as well as getting an additional ranged attack that also heals just provided a good deal of synergy. The fact that it dovetails nicely with another upgrade, and that they have now allowed the Live for Pain attack to have a 1" melee range means if you play Seamus this shouldn't even be a consideration. It goes on him.

Red Chapel Killer: This used to be an auto include for me before wave 5. It offered some items that were very useful, making it so if you didn't have the card, suit, or stone to summon you could still do something useful and prevented the situation where if there was a corpse Seamus just flat out tried to summon card or no card because he didn't have anything else to do. It also combo'd well with the one really unique thing he did which was popping up in the worst places for the opponent each turn and attacking where they didn't want. That ability is less unique now, and the draw backs over compensating. I still do see a place for this in niche builds especially combining with the Ability Trail of Clues, but given the fact that it is less imperative Seamus always be on his own I feel this upgrade suffers a little too much from competing 0 actions to be all that useful anymore.

Mad Haberdashery: Very Expensive, but always something to consider. It's an upgrade that can often only feel useful when you don't take it. Take it and all the factors that can make Seamus hard to remove from the table can make the opponent not even try to remove him, making you feel like you wasted the stones because he never gets attacked. Don't take it and you'll always remember the red joker flips that just remove Seamus from the table, as it seems every game I don't take it is the game where the red joker rears its unwelcome presence. I think this is a strong consideration depending on build. If your plan is to get Seamus into the thick of the enemy crew to rebuff them with his wp aura debuff, and to create havoc with BOO then taking this upgrade as insurance of his continued survival is a strong consideration. Additionally if you plan to bring the CCK that should also put some additional consideration on taking this as there is some value with the CCK you don't get if you don't take the hat. If neither of those assumptions are true then the Hat loses value.

A.K.A Sebastian Baker: This is a strong contender for the third slot. The biggest reason being is for the use of Trail of clues. Over the years I've played him one of the biggest (among many) frustrations I've encountered is that if Seamus does not get within 4 to 6" of a corpse marker during his turn then he has no effective 0 action to use. That failing has often made him feel little better than a minion as his turn could often go: Back Ally, Focus, Shoot - Miss....done. Trail of clues fixes this issue as he can always take that action, and the resource outlay is minimal, rarely even requiring he cheat to make it work. While the ability will be more or less useful depending on the scheme pool the wide range of the table that that single scheme marker can pop up in really gives a lot of flexibility to how you attempt to complete your schemes. The added summoning pool is always something useful even if it's of niche utility, so the upgrade is worth the cost of taking it even if you don't hire any Showgirls at all. Taking it also gives you access to 3 important models. Cassandra can serve as a really efficient henchman if interact VP conditions are required due to her resiliency and speed. Angelica is an interesting consideration if you were planning on using Doxies to move your own models around due to the fact she can do the same thing without needing a TN. She lacks any really abilities other than that so I think she's more of a consideration if you bring Asura, who will give her decent offensive actions. Finally performers are a strong consideration for crews built to maximize Terror and Manipulative, and occasionally summoning one to destroy a scheme marker the turn they are summoned is something to keep in the back of your mind. Not an auto pick upgrade, but something to always consider even if you don't own showgirls.

Do You Know Who I Am?: Probably the closest to a secondary auto include. Like the above upgrade it provides a very useful 0 action that doesn't require a corpse that dovetails well with the rest of Seamus' design. Fail the Horror duel and you're paralyzed, so depending on positioning you aren't stopping Seamus from being able to use his gun, which was a big issue previously. Pass your duel and Seamus gets to push you, potentially out of ml range, allowing him to shoot anyway. Combo this with the fact that it's a way for Seamus himself to cause potentially multiple wp duels during his turn, which can heal him if he's damaged, and the fact that it places at least one model effected by it a turn into an unpleasant fork, makes it a strong choice. That fork is due to the Create Fear ability it gives which states once per turn if an enemy model passes a Horror duel Seamus can do a 2/3/4 dmg flip against them. This duel's dmg flip can be cheated. So if you take Horror Duel Near Seamus 1 model a turn gets put into an awful situation. Pass the duel, potentially having to cheat a card to due so, and get smacked by potentially up to 4 dmg, or fail the duel and get paralyzed. Because of those overlapping synergies it also allows Seamus to operate more in the thick of things than he used to be able to. Seamus used to be primarily a predator killer. IE he wanted to never be in the thick of things, and wanted to pick on the weakest most easily killed models each turn because getting bogged down just destroyed his effectiveness. He still isn't a really effective beater, but he now can more easily utilize his control elements while being useful if engaged in the thick of the enemy crew, and that play style flexibility I think makes this upgrade a strong consideration to almost always be on him. You can certainly make crews that work without it, but the ability to use Seamus in more situations makes this upgrade hard to pass up.

Decaying Aura: This is a good upgrade that for a long time was universally loathed by everyone who couldn't take it and decried as OP, NPE, ban from the game forever. I think it's an ok upgrade, but I don't really think it's a good fit on Seamus generally. Mainly because if you want to utilize it in the most effective manner, Seamus isn't the master whom I feel you should be taking. You really need a master that has a higher and more consistent dmg output than Seamus does to really get your worth out of this upgrade. Seamus is offensive/control not beat stick. So while you can make effective use from this upgrade with Seamus, I think if this is your plan, Seamus shouldn't be the master to execute it.

 

[Skylifter-1000]

Lots of great ideas and inspiration there, I definitely think I'm going to have to play Seamus again - a lot (although I just had my first game with Reva and was absolutely astonished what she can accomplish, so her, too, I'll have to play a lot).