Guild Coroner

[Legislat]

We have a little argument considering the abovementioned upgrade.

We are talking about "Time of Death? Before I Got Here!"

So which interpretation is correct?

1) You may do multiple (0) actions with the mentioned upgrade in a single activation, but only if you made a (0) action BEFORE killing somebody with a  action. Afterwards you can take a (0) actions only after killing someone with a action and those on the upgrade itself.

2) You may not do multiple (0) actions with the mentioned upgrade in a single activation. This wording is only for possibility of killing other models not in your activation (Death Marshal reqruiter's "Into The Fray").

Discuss.

[Ludvig]

Really interested to know this as well. Seems pretty useless if you get to take a free (0) that you would get for free anyway so I would lean towards option 1 but the rules really give no support for that. Cassandra has a similar issue. Not even sure you would get to take the free (0) after you took a normal (0), they don't give you specific allowance to do so?

[trikk]

When something allows you to "take an action" I don`t think it blocks limits.

When Judge hits with a mask and can take the "Bullets and Blades" action you don`t pay the AP cost.

For the same reason it just allows you to take an action on the card for free but it doesn`t count as your (0) action for the purposes of this activation.

[Ludvig]

The ap is free but the general rules for zero actions specifically say that you can only take one zero action per activation. If you can only take a certain action a single time per turn you don't get to take it just because some ability says you take it? We all know it's supposed to work like you describe Trikk but the rules don't really seem to support it.

[Ludvig]

Could a moderator move this to the rules section btw?

[trikk]

10 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The ap is free but the general rules for zero actions specifically say that you can only take one zero action per activation. If you can only take a certain action a single time per turn you don't get to take it just because some ability says you take it? We all know it's supposed to work like you describe Trikk but the rules don't really seem to support it.

Rules also don`t work to the Lynch Depleted summoning upgrade. If someone doesn`t let you use the (0) which makes the ability absolutely worthless, it means he`s an a-hole

[Ludvig]

4 minutes ago, trikk said:

Rules also don`t work to the Lynch Depleted summoning upgrade. If someone doesn`t let you use the (0) which makes the ability absolutely worthless, it means he`s an a-hole

Haha! Hadn't noticed that one. It's like the black blood shaman all over again... Silly Lynch, maybe he needed to have Huggy count as an extra 10ss.  

[trikk]

Yep

 

Can someone point me to a point in the rulebook that says that if something lets you take an action, you don`t spend AP?

Yasunori`s trigger, Judges triggers, Domadors Last Dying Breath.

 

I`m not saying you do because you don`t, but I`d like to see where in the RB its said.

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, trikk said:

Yep

 

Can someone point me to a point in the rulebook that says that if something lets you take an action, you don`t spend AP?

Yasunori`s trigger, Judges triggers, Domadors Last Dying Breath.

 

I`m not saying you do because you don`t, but I`d like to see where in the RB its said.

The Actions causing actions callout box specifically says they don't cost ap. Don't have it here but I'm pretty positive on that.

[trikk]

2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The Actions causing actions callout box specifically says they don't cost ap. Don't have it here but I'm pretty positive on that.

It doesn`t say anything about Abilities so I guess the Domador`s thing doesn`t work (unless I missed something)

[Legislat]

Nobody is arguing the point of the action being free. The thing is it is still a (0) action and i suppose rules still apply.

It is pretty similar to a trigger on Cassandra, true. The (1) action says it can be done only 1 time per turn, so i'd say you can get it from trigger for free, but you cant use it as a standalone action anymore this turn. If it is true, then guild coroner (0) action shenanigans are pretty useless.

[Adran]

11 hours ago, trikk said:

Yep

 

Can someone point me to a point in the rulebook that says that if something lets you take an action, you don`t spend AP?

Yasunori`s trigger, Judges triggers, Domadors Last Dying Breath.

 

I`m not saying you do because you don`t, but I`d like to see where in the RB its said.

Some Actions and Abilities will force or allow a model to take another Action. If an Action or Ability calls for another Action to be taken (such as Charge or “Make A New Entry”) then the additional Action or Actions do not cost any AP. The original Action is not considered resolved until the new Actions are also resolved.”

Small rule book page 35, but the actual rule is errata'd to include abilities. 

[trikk]

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

Some Actions and Abilities will force or allow a model to take another Action. If an Action or Ability calls for another Action to be taken (such as Charge or “Make A New Entry”) then the additional Action or Actions do not cost any AP. The original Action is not considered resolved until the new Actions are also resolved.”

Small rule book page 35, but the actual rule is errata'd to include abilities. 

Ahhh, ok. Thanks for mentioning the errata! So Domador works :P. I still think the Coroner is just poorly written but the intention is pretty clear.

[Legislat]

30 minutes ago, trikk said:

Ahhh, ok. Thanks for mentioning the errata! So Domador works :P. I still think the Coroner is just poorly written but the intention is pretty clear.

To somebody it is pretty clear, but if we were in an agreement in our community i would not have written this topic =P

[trikk]

11 minutes ago, Legislat said:

To somebody it is pretty clear, but if we were in an agreement in our community i would not have written this topic =P

Well, otherwise it just doesn`t work.

[Ludvig]

I think Trikk has a very good point that if an upgrade/ability/trigger is worded in an ambiguous way and one option will simply make it do absolutely nothing it is safe to assume they wanted it to do something. Cramming in text that iu could take the actio when that essenially does nothing would be insanely stupid.

There are so many small inconsistencies in wording that you need to assume stuff is supposed to work. It's worse qhen there are actually two possible and equally viable interpretations.

[Legislat]

The main point of the opposers to those arguments that this in fact does something. Enables the use of the (0) out of activation. This is not much, but anyway.

[trikk]

Is there an option for leaders to kill something out of activation to take a (0) actions?

(apart from Into the Fray)

[Ludvig]

18 minutes ago, Legislat said:

The main point of the opposers to those arguments that this in fact does something. Enables the use of the (0) out of activation. This is not much, but anyway.

The person actually arguing that stance should probably come here and tell us their arguments because I doubt you will be able to drive their points since you seem to agree with us.

[Legislat]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

The person actually arguing that stance should probably come here and tell us their arguments because I doubt you will be able to drive their points since you seem to agree with us.

Yes, mostly i agree. I just tend to play devil's advocate. But i still have questions. Does the free (0) count towards the 1 (0) per activation rule? Can you still use Injection or Expunge after the free (0)? 

[trikk]

8 minutes ago, Legislat said:

Yes, mostly i agree. I just tend to play devil's advocate. But i still have questions. Does the free (0) count towards the 1 (0) per activation rule? Can you still use Injection or Expunge after the free (0)? 

No and Yes. I would treat it as an action from a trigger/ability (so basically you ignore the "(0)") 

To make sure we`re on the same page: The RAW interpretation of your friend is correct. The upgrades ability should say "not counting towards the (0) action limit". However that would make it useless unless used with a single model in the game that is from a different subfaction (or faction if you play RR). Furthermore since the ability is not once per turn if I kill two models, by your friends logic, I can only use that part once.

For me the wording is clearly meant to make the (0) an extra action. I do agree it deserves a FAQ.

[Ludvig]

The free (0) doesn't count as the (0) per intent but right now it would by the RAW.

I think there is a strong argument that you should treat the text about only getting "...one of these "free" actions per turn..." means that you can only pay 0 ap once but that you can actually take 0 actions if they are granted by the actions causing actions part of the rules. The text on 0 actions just didn't account for this becoming a future possibility and so was worded in a way that wasn't very fortunate. It has also been errata'd once because it used to say you could only do it once per turn and not once per activation so it has been proven to be innefectual at conveying what it was intending to say once already. I think the proper way to treat it is that all models gain 2 ap and one specifik 0 ap, then some models have abilities that grant them extra ap like masters or models with swift, nimble, melee expert etc.

That being said, plenty of intrractions become just stupid if you go by very strict RAW in this gsme though and the faq actually often goes against RAW like the Shrödinger's Huggy interacrion and dumb luck on gremlins as well as the heal on McMourning and Seamus attacks. The way most (hopefully all) people play the distract trigger on austringers is also not right according to game rules.