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Aaron

January 2018 Errata

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23 minutes ago, the tick said:

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but Burt and McTavish are NOT worth that SS increase. Both models were more problematic outside of the Gremlin faction than they were in faction. Not sure about Francois. Third errata in a row with the most significant nerfs? Pretty discouraging, regardless of how "necessary" those changes were.

On a positive note, Wild Boar and Moon Shinobi attention is certainly welcome. Really excited for the Survivors....but still going to have to think long and hard about whether its time to ditch Gremlins for a different faction. Maybe I can fulfill my 180 days of Brewmaster in TT instead.

All in all, glad to see some of the cost reductions!

Shhhh... or you will hear from certain people that Gremlins were/are/always will be OP😂

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7 minutes ago, dancater said:

  However, Kaeris and Colette are both lagging in the Arcanist meta and Kaeris got not much (Specialist, maybe the Captain), while Colette got even less.

I actually think a 6 point Cojo may have some play with Colette. Surplus markers can make him tanky and there’s enough movement shenanigans to make up for his slowness. 

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2 hours ago, Sergrum said:

Gremlins only faction to be nerfed all of the last 3 erratas, and get barely anything in return. Aaron truly does hate them!

 

Arcanists say hello :)

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2 hours ago, Sergrum said:

Gremlins only faction to be nerfed all of the last 3 erratas, and get barely anything in return. Aaron truly does hate them!

 

Arcanists were affected in the last 3 errata as well.  

Edit- oops just realised arcanist only went down in cost here. Well I guess that makes them worse for Ours. ;)

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I'm a little worried about what this kind of errata means for the future of Malifaux. Each time a new wave of miniatures is released are a bunch of older models suddenly going to drop in SS cost? Is the problem that older models aren't good and overcosted, or is the problem that newer models are too good and undercosted? Maybe instead of cutting the costs of older models, newer ones should have been bumped up.

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2 minutes ago, Shadowdragon said:

I'm a little worried about what this kind of errata means for the future of Malifaux. Each time a new wave of miniatures is released are a bunch of older models suddenly going to drop in SS cost? Is the problem that older models aren't good and overcosted, or is the problem that newer models are too good and undercosted? Maybe instead of cutting the costs of older models, newer ones should have been bumped up.

The designers change (and learn more about their job) and the game evolves. Meta shifts. Its impossible to have a status quo.

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1 hour ago, -Loki- said:

When all you're doing is playing around with ss costs, getting people to look outside of their auto includes is basically the entire goal. So yeah, errata is working.

Yes I agree - as I said I am happy for the challenge and this will succeed in "rotating" some models in/out, it just doesn't fix those models that are way too behind to be adjusted by a simple point modification. I mentioned already Moon Shinobi and more in general the whole brewmaster crew, I know other factions have similar issues (Kaeris in Arcanists for example). For those, and thankfully they are not many, a larger rework is needed.

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Looking at Neverborn, it's one of few factions that only got point reduction. I don't mind, but I don't think this is really fair, compared to the likes of Gremlins, Outcasts or TT. I guess complaint about Trappers and Burt were louder than those about Doppelganger and others. Politics :P

Aaaaaanyway, most changes in Nvb are welcome, but some leave me a bit perplexed. Beckoner at 6SS is going to heavily shift the balance - it's going to be the cheapest "lure" available to Nvb. Well, now Kade is also 6 - I didn't think that was needed. Rider -2 is also probably excessive. The rest is mostly good, Bunraku and Lelu might see some more play but, just like for some of the models I mentioned before, I don't think a simple points reduction will fix Bad Juju or Tuco, for instance, their mechanics are still too clunky.

So this confirms my impression that this errata works for 80-90% of the models impacted, but there are some for which a simple point cut just won't do.

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3 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Looking at Neverborn, it's one of few factions that only got point reduction. I don't mind, but I don't think this is really fair, compared to the likes of Gremlins, Outcasts or TT. I guess complaint about Trappers and Burt were louder than those about Doppelganger and others. Politics :P

Aaaaaanyway, most changes in Nvb are welcome, but some leave me a bit perplexed. Beckoner at 6SS is going to heavily shift the balance - it's going to be the cheapest "lure" available to Nvb. Well, now Kade is also 6 - I didn't think that was needed. Rider -2 is also probably excessive. The rest is mostly good, Bunraku and Lelu might see some more play but, just like for some of the models I mentioned before, I don't think a simple points reduction will fix Bad Juju or Tuco, for instance, their mechanics are still too clunky.

Beckoner at 6ss is just a better option for Lynch, if people want a lure they'll still likely go for Lilitu. When was the last time you saw Kade played? I agree that 10ss for the Hooded Rider might end up being too good and 11ss could be a better place, Tuco for 6ss is good(so long as you can deploy second), because he offers a good amount of pressure on the opponent early without being easily taken out because of Disguised. Agreed on Bad Juju, his min 2 damage is what really hurts him, although he's now more desirable in Ours and Supply Wagons because he's able to come back and he'll be a relatively cheap 50mm model to push the wagon.

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2 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

You're a bit optimistic :)

Bushwackers maybe, but for Shinobis it's a problem of what they do (or don't do), not just cost. I don't think they'll shine at all. I agree that for most of the changes Gremlins got it good, just a couple of things could have done better.

I like the idea of turning [-] into [+], as we have a lot of models with hard to wound, stubborn, and other build-in [-] to attack and damage flips against them. So Shinobi finaly have a chance to say "Surprise!" to Yin, Yasunori, Zoraida and many others (: Also their nice ability to push 5" at end of turn after suffering damage from poison will be useful for Take prisoner or Hold up their forces. 

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2 hours ago, the tick said:

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but Burt and McTavish are NOT worth that SS increase. Both models were more problematic outside of the Gremlin faction than they were in faction. Not sure about Francois. Third errata in a row with the most significant nerfs? Pretty discouraging, regardless of how "necessary" those changes were.

On a positive note, Wild Boar and Moon Shinobi attention is certainly welcome. Really excited for the Survivors....but still going to have to think long and hard about whether its time to ditch Gremlins for a different faction. Maybe I can fulfill my 180 days of Brewmaster in TT instead.

All in all, glad to see some of the cost reductions!

The best McTavish was absolutely in faction with Wong making him Glowy. And while Burt was most egregious in Guild with Debt, he's still very good in Gremlins, especially when Glowy and/or with Dirty Cheater.

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1 minute ago, Scoffer said:

I like the idea of turning [-] into [+], as we have a lot of models with hard to wound, stubborn, and other build-in [-] to attack and damage flips against them. So Shinobi finaly have a chance to say "Surprise!" to Yin, Yasunori, Zoraida and many others (: I'm going to try tomorrow.

They had the same chance at 6SS - it just doesn't work as well on the field as it does on paper. Please, do try, but I've been tinkering with brewmaster since M2E came out and I'm not very optimistic.

It's not a matter of points, they just don't do anything well enough to justify their hire: for scheme running they're too slow and there are far better options, and for hitting monks can hit harder, not to mention several other models. Slow is really the biggest problem, I often find they can't keep up with the crew, that's why reckless would have made sense, or even better drunk and reckless. So keep them at 6SS but give them more mobility I think would have worked better.

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6 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Beckoner at 6ss is just a better option for Lynch, if people want a lure they'll still likely go for Lilitu. When was the last time you saw Kade played? I agree that 10ss for the Hooded Rider might end up being too good and 11ss could be a better place, Tuco for 6ss is good(so long as you can deploy second), because he offers a good amount of pressure on the opponent early without being easily taken out because of Disguised. Agreed on Bad Juju, his min 2 damage is what really hurts him, although he's now more desirable in Ours and Supply Wagons because he's able to come back and he'll be a relatively cheap 50mm model to push the wagon.

Mmm I'm a big fan of Lilitu but if all I need is a lure I might as well save 1SS :)
I played Kade recently, he is ok, really, not as bad as people picture him :)

I'm glad we agree on most things. Indeed, in some cases rather than a point adjustment a mechanics adjustment seems unavoidable. I explained Shinobis in my previous post (too slow-can't keep up is their main problem), you explained Juju here. Keep same point cost but increase min damage to 3 would have been much better.

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2 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Mmm I'm a big fan of Lilitu but if all I need is a lure I might as well save 1SS :)
I played Kade recently, he is ok, really, not as bad as people picture him :)

Ca7 Lure vs Ca6 Lure make a huge difference. Df6 vs Df4 and Wk 5 vs Wk6 also do.

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17 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

They had the same chance at 6SS - it just doesn't work as well on the field as it does on paper. Please, do try, but I've been tinkering with brewmaster since M2E came out and I'm not very optimistic.

It's not a matter of points, they just don't do anything well enough to justify their hire: for scheme running they're too slow and there are far better options, and for hitting monks can hit harder, not to mention several other models. Slow is really the biggest problem, I often find they can't keep up with the crew, that's why reckless would have made sense, or even better drunk and reckless. So keep them at 6SS but give them more mobility I think would have worked better.

I agree, that everything is better with reckless ) But making them cheaper is better than nothing. For 6ss they were not an option at all. Now, i think, sometimes they will be better, than Lightning bugs or other 5ss minions.

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Lelitu also has Regeneration and can always Whispers in Blood if you need to shore up her Defense. Granted it's only until EOT, but doesn't need a card, benefits WP, and boosts her Lure if you want to go Whispers + Lure route. Generally I'll take her outside of Lynch, but Beckoners in Lynch is easier to swallow.

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1 hour ago, edopersichetti said:

Looking at Neverborn, it's one of few factions that only got point reduction. I don't mind, but I don't think this is really fair, compared to the likes of Gremlins, Outcasts or TT. I guess complaint about Trappers and Burt were louder than those about Doppelganger and others. Politics :P

Aaaaaanyway, most changes in Nvb are welcome, but some leave me a bit perplexed. Beckoner at 6SS is going to heavily shift the balance - it's going to be the cheapest "lure" available to Nvb. Well, now Kade is also 6 - I didn't think that was needed. Rider -2 is also probably excessive. The rest is mostly good, Bunraku and Lelu might see some more play but, just like for some of the models I mentioned before, I don't think a simple points reduction will fix Bad Juju or Tuco, for instance, their mechanics are still too clunky.

So this confirms my impression that this errata works for 80-90% of the models impacted, but there are some for which a simple point cut just won't do.

Borbs only got reductions, but they were very much there to shake things up.  There's a reason that the Neverborn All Stars is a thing - in most cases, we have specific models in most point costs that are almost always better than the rest.  Beckoners going to 6 mean they might be picked over Lilitu.  Kade at 6 may see play again (which also means Teddy may show up more often, which means a couple of our most iconic models might leave the shelf occasionally!).  No one took Lelu outside of Dreamer summons - now he might show up to support his much better sister.  Tuco was a model *no one* cared about - maybe at 6ss his gun might come out.  Vasilia, Badjuju, Spawn Mother- all interesting models that just sat on the shelf because of cost.  Now maybe it'll be more than just the All Stars!

But there's also a hidden cost increase to Borbs - pretty much all our favorite out of faction models got cost increases! Johan was a member of the All Stars - he's +1.  Nurse was in a lot of Zoraida crews - +1.  McTavish the same.  Even Burt was starting to show up.  Trappers were often a must have in Collodi with Changelings.  +1.  Terracotta Warriors were one of the best things to import in to Lucius on NB side.  Probably still are at +1. 
 

Stuff we like that got cheaper: Lawyer and Guard never showed up - maybe they will now.  Hans was always just a *bit* too expensive to include, and now is a consideration (certainly going to knock Angel Eyes out of the few crews she was in).  

 

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Whilst i can understand the desire for the cost changes to minimize changes in card text, I am very disappointed to see how few upgrades got changed. The little changes like the one to Sinister Reputation plus the new upgrades for masters could have really helped diversify builds, but instead many useless upgrades will remain that way.

I am very surprised to see Scion of Black Blood and Angel Eyes not get cost reductions, plus increasing cost of Yasunori and A&D but leaving Nekima alone?

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Meh, sure this might get some models taken more but it doesn't fix more fundamental issues with design of those models. (Also I feel mimicking certain changes in Guild Ball mercenary might be a rule we have to phase out.) Also I'm sad the symmetry between the four riders is now gone, feel that could have been handled more elegantly.

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I hoped convict gunslingers get BANDIT keyword, because they definitely bandits. Or may be some TN reduction for Parker's "obey" actions

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5 hours ago, Adran said:

Arcanists were affected in the last 3 errata as well.  

Edit- oops just realised arcanist only went down in cost here. Well I guess that makes them worse for Ours. ;)

What do you mean? Johan went up in cost. :P

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2 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

Whilst i can understand the desire for the cost changes to minimize changes in card text, I am very disappointed to see how few upgrades got changed. The little changes like the one to Sinister Reputation plus the new upgrades for masters could have really helped diversify builds, but instead many useless upgrades will remain that way.

I am very surprised to see Scion of Black Blood and Angel Eyes not get cost reductions, plus increasing cost of Yasunori and A&D but leaving Nekima alone?

With the large number of price changes that were made, I’m glad that Wyrd didn’t change much else. Too many changes at once are likely to result in overcorrection.

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my bar for people fixing tabletop systems is pretty low to be honest, so i'm happy to see there are changes to update the game. Having said that however, I think I was looking for something more substantial. I get that point cost adjustments are probably the easiest to incorporate for everyone involved, but i can't help but just look at the changes and feel like they are lazy changes. still probably going to be some dead and hardly used models out there

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