January 2018 Errata

[spafe]

That's brilliant, thanks!

Hopefully by next years errata they'll have sorted out a European printing house so the postage isnt almost as much as the card order lol. Least that's all the cards that my group will need up to date now.

[SunTsu]

On 12/1/2018 at 4:35 AM, edopersichetti said:

My main gripe with Burt/Trapper/Johan/Tavish etc. was that they were too good out of faction (as it seems it was for you too).

Really, no. I don't understand why you think this for these models. If they were underpriced, this is valid for all factions, not just the others.

On 12/1/2018 at 4:35 AM, edopersichetti said:

When I referred to the decreased effectiveness of Gremlins it is not because Burt and Frank are +1, but because the other factions are slowly but consistently filling their gaps, while Gremlins are not

If a master is broken, we can fix it. But having a theme does not mean that a faction should be unable to do something else. And often, getting different options comes to a prize. For example I don't know so well Reva to say if she's too powerful or not. But for sure the problem is not its playstyle, because its shooting power comes with the drawback of very few summoning. I mean, we can debate if Reva deserves to be toned down, but the problem is not that with her now ressers get to became shooty...

 

If we want further expand the debate, I hope that in a future M3e we will start to think on a more appropriate cost rating: now we have a crew for 50ss, I think it would be better to have the same crew cost 100ss, so to let weight even 0.5 actual solstone. This could let price better the models. Infact, at the beginning this system was satisfying, but now with so much more model you can appreciate that there is a difference between two same cost models. A limit example for me are the stuffed piglets: the right cost should be 2.5ss, at 2ss those were broken, at 3ss those are completely out of play.

Another thing that maybe could be nice in a future M3e would be themed hiring: something like that each master have some theme from whom hire with a bonus, someone else from whom hire with a malus, and maybe someone from whom hiring is forbidden... This maybe could give another tool to balance different models and master inside a facion.

[Aegnor]

@SunTsu I love playing themed list so i totaly agree (took ulix and collodi as my first masters for a reason).

Forbidding things is already in the game with Lazarus in a way.

[Amayasu]

Just wanted to say thank you for doing the faction specific bundles at massive discount. I've placed an order for our gaming group, and it was super simple as a result. I appreciate it was probably a reasonable amount of effort, but it's a really respectful approach - thanks.

[edopersichetti]

4 hours ago, SunTsu said:

Really, no. I don't understand why you think this for these models. If they were underpriced, this is valid for all factions, not just the others.

Not at all. Because each faction has its own internal balance - the same model at the same SS cost can be a bargain for a faction and overcosted for another one. 

 

5 hours ago, SunTsu said:

If there are a master broken, we can fix it. But having a theme does not mean that a faction should be unable to do something else. And often, getting different options comes to a prize. For example I don't know so well Reva to say if she's too powerful or not. But for sure the problem is not its playstyle, because its shooting power comes with the drawback of very few summoning. I mean, we can debate if Reva deserves to be toned down, but the problem is not that with her now ressers get to became shooty...

 

If we want further expand the debate, I hope that in a future M3e we will start to think on a more appropriate cost rating: now we have a crew for 50ss, I think it would be better to have the same crew cost 100ss, so to let weight even 0.5 actual solstone. This could let price better the models. Infact, at the beginning this system was satisfying, but now with so much more model you can appreciate that there is a difference between two same cost models. A limit example for me are the stuffed piglets: the right cost should be 2.5ss, at 2ss those were broken, at 3ss those are completely out of play.

Another thing that maybe could be nice in a future M3e would be themed hiring: something like that each master have some theme from whom hire with a bonus, someone else from whom hire with a malus, and maybe someone from whom hiring is forbidden... This maybe could give another tool to balance different models and master inside a facion.

Again I disagree: it's not a matter of theme, but of mechanics. I DO like the idea of each faction being able to do something better than the other, otherwise if you want both players to be able to do the same thing you can play chess

Seriously though, homologation is boring, at least for me. As I mentioned in some other post, it is rather inevitable, look at colossal games like Magic the Gathering or World of Warcraft. I still remember when Horde players were not allowed to have Paladins.

I can see more granularity would help, but I strongly disagree with the opinion that Stuffed Piglets were broken. "Broken" is a very strong word. What was problematic was only the fact that it was technically possible to hire 6 of them and gain an activation advantage, but the model itself is little more than a nuisance - that could have been easily fixed by limiting its hiring, not raising the cost. As you say, they are now useless

Themed hiring is already kind of present, but yes, anything that preserves or enhances flavor is welcome!

[edopersichetti]

10 hours ago, trikk said:

For me thats simply not true. They were as good in faction as well as out of faction.

 

Why would Gremlins get a durable fast cheap beater for 7SS? If some factions were willing to pay 8SS for him it means they don`t have a similar model for 8 in their own faction. I don`t see why do you think Gremlins are so special that Tavish and Burt can be wrongly costed and other factions should pay the right cost?

 

First of all, I`ll say that we can be in a total disagreeement here because its a matter of point of view but I think factions should be mainly about models and theme and seconadarily about mechanics because a lot of new players pick faction based on theme and saying "ohh, you can`t do that here" is kind of discouraging but I think this is just a personal preference. But what is less based on personal preferences is that all factions must have the same chances in strategies. If you look at the Guild Forum, Interference-like strats were a bane to a lot of players because Guild didn`t have an answer to it until Nellie came and gave a fighting chance.

If Guild wanted to outactivate most people they just took Nellie. The Wk4 Guild Guard spam seriously isn`t needed.

 

I don`t see how Burt is high-risk/high-reward. I don`t see how Tavish is high-risk/high-reward. I don`t see how Swinecursed are high-risk/high-reward. Pere Ravage are high-risk high-reward. All 3 models have: Ml6, average or master-level Wp (5 Tavish, 7 other two), various defenses (4/5/6), decent amount of wounds (8/10/10). Swinecursed have Ml6, Df6. Lightning Bugs have Df5 Ca6. Merris has Df6, Wp5. Those aren`t really "terrible stats". 

Everybody is talking about self-hurt as a disadvantage but when it comes to crewbuilding reckless is all around the place . Also Gloowy Wong kind of mitigates most of it.

I agree that GG18 hurt them. But I think the issue is not that "Gremlins are not competetive" but "the way Gremlins used to be super effective is not competetive". I think Gremlin players kind of have to figure some stuff out. But I played like 3-5 games against Wong and he seems very powerful in GG18.

 

Graves absolutely doesn`t deserve the +1. Primordial probably does but he becomes less and less autopick (I think he is used mostly with Lilith but Cherube isn`t bad, with Pandora, but Polter summoning will slowly make him less popular and Titania because Gorar is bad- Collodi, Lucius, Zoraida, Lynch and Dreamer don`t use him or have comparable totems)

I can agree on Doppelganger, he should probably be 8SS. But nobody said the errata fixed everything. I also don`t see Doppel being 8 means Gremlins are bad.

 

Pale is still garbage. Dead is in the middle okish but there are better things. Hooded is very good for 10.

As I replied to @SunTsu, it might be personal preference. I prefer to choose factions for theme AND mechanics, in fact most often mechanics first, then theme. No offence, but choosing just a faction/model for its looks but without knowing what it can/can't do is a bit naive. Clearly, it must work from the point of view of the company, but I find it waters down the game and makes it less interesting. It's like playing Warhammer Dwarfs and wanting to play cavalry...if you wanna play cavalry go play Bretonnia

When I talk about Gremlins and high-risk/high-reward I talk of the faction as a whole, not singling out 2-3 models that are an exception. Otherwise you can say anything of any faction. Neverborn are traditionally glass cannons or anyway rather squishy, yet Illuminated are incredibly resilient, so I could, based on your logic, assert that the faction as a whole is not squishy.

Gremlin players know their strength and weaknesses, others tend to only focus on the former. Reckless is awesome but you have to use it carefully and overall gremlins die in droves.

I conclude by mentioning that I would have liked to see the other way around - Graves, Primordial and Doppel goin up and then telling Nvb players to "figure out a new way to play". Can you imagine the noise right now? 

p.s. I only own Hooded so perhaps that is why I was perplexed, he's a good model. Don't know much about the other riders as I've hardly played against them (apart from Mech, of course).

[the tick]

I'll also add to edop's points. Each faction  brings their own upgrades to their mercenary hires. This combined with the capacity to support/buff in different ways means that mercenary models will behave different than in their parent faction. Sure Dirty Cheater (common for Burt) is great but it's not Recalled Training or Debt to the Guild. Not saying it's better it worse, just that putting those types of upgrades on a model like Burt certainly makes him behave differently out of faction. Same holds true for McT.

[katadder]

Since when have gremlins been high risk? Low risk high reward maybe as the "risk" is taking some minor damage to get a faction full of fast but this is offset by a model that heals everyone in an area around him and it doesn't even require to be cast.

[Mr Janje]

DF5, 5 Wounds

Not exactly an impossible piece to remove

He also only heals 4 models in a 3" bubble, and he won't move unless he goes reckless

[Myyrä]

14 minutes ago, Mr Janje said:

DF5, 5 Wounds

Not exactly an impossible piece to remove

He also only heals 4 models in a 3" bubble, and he won't move unless he goes reckless

I'm confused, were you trying to prove or disprove @katadder's point? Seems to me like you are saying that Gremlins have access to the best healer in the game for a very low cost.

[katadder]

1 hour ago, Myyrä said:

I'm confused, were you trying to prove or disprove @katadder's point? Seems to me like you are saying that Gremlins have access to the best healer in the game for a very low cost.

think hes proved my point. also the bit about them going reckless to move is a non-issue as they can be one of the 4 healed, so themselves and 3 others for no cards.

slop haulers are definitely the best healer in the game IMO.

[daniello_s]

If he stays in the bouble together with other models. Usually when you go reckless with other models you end up quite far away from Slop Hauler. Too far to be healed. Trust me, I'm playing Gremlins.

[Tris]

I think we can agree that the Slop has a very good healing action, but is by no means hard to kill and might end up out of position if you don`t take care or use the various alpha strikes Gremlins can do.

 

[Myyrä]

2 hours ago, daniello_s said:

Trust me, I'm playing Gremlins.

That is a weird way to try to get anyone trust you.

[Math Mathonwy]

On 1/12/2018 at 10:50 AM, trikk said:

Why would Gremlins get a durable fast cheap beater for 7SS? If some factions were willing to pay 8SS for him it means they don`t have a similar model for 8 in their own faction. I don`t see why do you think Gremlins are so special that Tavish and Burt can be wrongly costed and other factions should pay the right cost?

I think that it's very easy to argue that Gremlins are the faction who offer the least amount of support/synergy for McTavish. Other Factions have several ways of buffing him better and have better Upgrades for him to take.

On Burt I agree with you (he has access to a ton of support in Gremlins).

On 1/12/2018 at 10:50 AM, trikk said:

Pale is still garbage. Dead is in the middle okish but there are better things. Hooded is very good for 10.

Dead is pretty boss, actually. I except that we'll start seeing him quite a lot.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not really. Dead is only arguably good for Nicodem, and I’m not sure there’s room for him in any competitive build I’ve seen for him.

[trikk]

39 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that it's very easy to argue that Gremlins are the faction who offer the least amount of support/synergy for McTavish. Other Factions have several ways of buffing him better and have better Upgrades for him to take.

I agree. My only.concern with Tavish in Gremlins is Ooh Glowy.

[Math Mathonwy]

20 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Not really. Dead is only arguably good for Nicodem, and I’m not sure there’s room for him in any competitive build I’ve seen for him.

You should try him with Reva, Tara, and Yan Lo at least as well. I was down on the guy at first but I've been shown the error of my ways. I guess time will tell.

[edopersichetti]

8 hours ago, katadder said:

Since when have gremlins been high risk? Low risk high reward maybe as the "risk" is taking some minor damage to get a faction full of fast but this is offset by a model that heals everyone in an area around him and it doesn't even require to be cast.

This is exactly the kind of short-sighted view that non-Gremlin players have of the Gremlin faction and leads to all the problems we're discussing  

Try playing Gremlins yourself a few times: you'll learn a lot about their strengths and weaknesses!

[Fetid Strumpet]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

You should try him with Reva, Tara, and Yan Lo at least as well. I was down on the guy at first but I've been shown the error of my ways. I guess time will tell.

I have. 

[katadder]

36 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

This is exactly the kind of short-sighted view that non-Gremlin players have of the Gremlin faction and leads to all the problems we're discussing  

Try playing Gremlins yourself a few times: you'll learn a lot about their strengths and weaknesses!

I know about their strengths and lack of weaknesses.

They get easy access to fast and also to really high damage all for some self damage. This is then negated by the best healer in the game. And let's not forget bayou 2 card to give you 2 chances to win a duel even when top decking. They can until the latest errata out activate anyone but Hamlin whilst bringing cheap big beaters and also have an init cheating model.

I know their supposed weaknesses which are not real, you tell me some gremlins weaknesses? 

[trikk]

On 12.01.2018 at 8:44 PM, edopersichetti said:

As I replied to @SunTsu, it might be personal preference. I prefer to choose factions for theme AND mechanics, in fact most often mechanics first, then theme. No offence, but choosing just a faction/model for its looks but without knowing what it can/can't do is a bit naive. Clearly, it must work from the point of view of the company, but I find it waters down the game and makes it less interesting. It's like playing Warhammer Dwarfs and wanting to play cavalry...if you wanna play cavalry go play Bretonnia

Except "cavalry" isn`t just stats and mechanics. Its also models and the feel of the army. As in I think a lot people who played Brettonia didn`t play it because "I want to play a fast hard hitting army" but because knights and pegasus and griffons look cool. No new players will be sold on model playstyle.

I mentioned it might be a personal but I don`t find it naive. When I started playing Malifaux I wanted to play Lady J because she and the Death Marshals looked awesome. I had no idea about the rules and I don`t think any new player can immediately find out the playstyle until he plays a few games. Its just a matter whats more important to you.

 

On 12.01.2018 at 8:44 PM, edopersichetti said:

I conclude by mentioning that I would have liked to see the other way around - Graves, Primordial and Doppel goin up and then telling Nvb players to "figure out a new way to play". Can you imagine the noise right now? 

When Papa in a box and Austringers were changed in Guild (and those were HUGE autotakes), a lot of players we`re like "yaaaa, that sucks but it was kind of deserved". Of course there were negative comments, but nothing groundbreaking.

 

If it turns out Gremlins really struggle in GG18 after a few months I have no problem with giving them buffs. But I agree with Myyra that a faction designed on extremes is very hard to balance because someone will struggle.

[Tris]

On 12.1.2018 at 8:44 PM, edopersichetti said:

I conclude by mentioning that I would have liked to see the other way around - Graves, Primordial and Doppel goin up and then telling Nvb players to "figure out a new way to play". Can you imagine the noise right now? 

To begin with, Graves is no autotake by any means, in my opinion and is fine at his cost.

Also, credit where it's due, I expected much more complaints about last years Dreamer nerf, but Neverborn players surprised me and stayed quite calm, so honestly I don't think there would be much noise about Doppel and Primordial going up +1 ^^

[edopersichetti]

We all agree that Slop is one of the best healers in the game. That is for a reason: its own faction tends to accumulate lots of damage, both because of poor stats and defensive abilities, and because they hurt themselves. However, it is not almighty. Among other things:

- It can't move unless it goes Reckless
- if it does, he either heals himself (and so 1 less in the bubble) or accumulates some damage quickly on his starting 5 Wds
- even if it does move, it's a single Wk 5, so it tends to lag behind crew
- healing range is 3" which is not that long, and requires to keep up with crew (see previous point)
- can only target Gremlins or Pigs. This can be surprisingly annoying if you have mercs but also in-faction models like Tavish or Emissary
- goes down pretty quickly. If you rely on him so much, and he dies, then your whole game also goes downhill pretty quickly

So great piece, but with its limitations, and only makes sense in the faction mechanics. I keep repeating that it doesn't make sense to compare pieces in different factions, because they have different mechanics and bring different things to the table. Other factions have their own amazing models that Gremlins can only dream about, including reliable tanky models, high-end beaters (a la Nekima/Yasunori) etc.

[edopersichetti]

41 minutes ago, Tris said:

To begin with, Graves is no autotake by any means, in my opinion and is fine at his cost.

Also, credit where it's due, I expected much more complaints about last years Dreamer nerf, but Neverborn players surprised me and stayed quite calm, so honestly I don't think there would be much noise about Doppel and Primordial going up +1 ^^

Those are 3 of the so-called "Neverborn all stars", so that's why I mentioned Graves. I also think he's fine at his cost, but then sometimes we got models that were fine at their cost and still got a nerf so...