A sneak peak to errata

[Aegnor]

The last two times i played te pigapult it died turn 1. First game from a vik of blood whirldwind coming from 15649" away. Second game to a tara-propeled bishop.

In your game you were unlucky on the severe ( severe on - flip is just luck). Then your opponent cheated (if pigapult could cheat on stuffedpiglet bacon load that would change things a lot). And it seems that frank and ophelia did a lot of work also. I can understand why you feel this about the pigapult but i can assure you it s pretty weak. Remember each turn of shooting cost 3ss at least or you need some way to refill ammo (somer, ulix, lenny, taxidermist).

 

The main reason people are taking the pigapult now is for the launch ability. In scheme like take prisoner, public demo or similar.

[Adran]

9 minutes ago, trikk said:

If Pigapult is in hard cover then what do you want to do about it?

You need to win init, have a moderate-high tome, git by 6 and have a severe for damage.

 

Also: How do you know you will play against pigapult?

Multi focus if needed, high cards may be enough anyway thanks to the Pigapults low Df. 

And you may not know what you're facing, but the trick works pretty well against a lot of support models. And some times you just gamble with your selection and hope. 

[Aegnor]

Just now, Adran said:

Multi focus if needed, high cards may be enough anyway thanks to the Pigapults low Df. 

And you may not know what you're facing, but the trick works pretty well against a lot of support models. And some times you just gamble with your selection and hope. 

And now hans is a pretty solid sniper choice. A lot of people are considering taking him instead of trapper now.

But i don't think you should take pigapult into consideration when making your list since you will almost never play against it in gg2018 (at least until july errata maybe or in 'casual' lists.

[Zebo]

Yes, I know my opponent had luck and play bad (not cheat), so not 2 Trapper each turn. 

 

But 1 Trapper or Librarian each turn easily still sound pretty tough to me. 

[Aegnor]

2 hours ago, Zebo said:

Yes, I know my opponent had luck and play bad (not cheat), so not 2 Trapper each turn. 

 

But 1 Trapper or Librarian each turn easily still sound pretty tough to me. 

Pigapult vs trapper is sh5 vs df5. min damage 3 vs armor 1 so usually 2 and trapper has 6 wd.

So yeah the pigapult can kill one trapper a turn if it lands every hit and pay 3ss each turn.

Against 2 trapper that would be 14ss(8+6) killing 2*7ss in 2 turns with 6/6 hits and 6ss worth of model sacrified.

That doesn't sound tough at all for me.

[Zebo]

In my APP, Pigapult has Sh 6, so it has the advantage. 

 

EDIT: and also are killing 14ss, not 8ss

[trikk]

4 minutes ago, Zebo said:

In my APP, Pigapult has Sh 6, so it has the advantage. 

 

EDIT: and also are killing 14ss, not 8ss

It sufferes -1 to hit when it uses a stuffed piglet

[Davos]

3 hours ago, trikk said:

Oh I agree. But that basically proves my point. The 1SS change didn`t do much to Ashes. The GG18 made it from a auto-pick to a niche-pick. Which I`m pretty ok with (as an Outcast player). He used to be most busted in Hamelin IMHO.

I think that's the whole point.  +1ss doesn't make him unplayable, but in the non-essential masters (ie not Levi.Ham-Ham) you have to really make a choice about bringing him. 

Under GG18, there are some Strats that make him less appealing, but he can still do schemes with the best of them, or in the more standard cases the perfect counterschemer/heavy murderbot.  

Making him a niche-pick is the best result Wyrd could have done - still viable when the synergies are present and then a legitimate choice on bringing in every-time else.  IF you compare him to Burt, another model that got +1ss and is considered an auto-pick in Gremlins and most merc based crews, we see much the same thing.  Burt will still be taken in almost every Gremlin crew (sans the select ones that already didn't) and much less as a merc.  Whereas A&D will now really only show up in the heavy synergy crews and rarely elsewhere.  (Assuming we treat A&D like Burt's "merc" trait - in that, A&D CAN work in Tara, Viks, Daw, or VS, but now at 14ss, its very much a question of worth.)

[daniello_s]

49 minutes ago, trikk said:

It sufferes -1 to hit when it uses a stuffed piglet

And it can't cheat the fate even when it is on straight or positive damage flip.

[trikk]

I personally think Pigapult is a pretty badly designed model. Not in a OP or UP kind of way.

First of all, it has an added tax in pigs.

Second of all its extremely swingy - either it gets wiped out with the Hans combo or some other armor ignoring stuff OR block 24" and kill a lot of support models with basically no counterplay.

I`d prefer it dropped in range and became a lot less ammo-reliant.

[Aegnor]

Somethign like this would be nice :

-only one sh5 24" attack ignoring los but not cover, + flip maybe(kinda normal attack with uncheatable damage flip in the end) with low damages like 1/2/4 or 2/3/4.

-An option to load a pig to either get +sh and/or damage (piglets) or +blast (stuffies). So you can become sh 6 2/3/5 (or 3/4/5)  or normal damage+blast.

-3rd ap ONLY if you load a pig.

So you can always do things even with no ammo but for low accuracy and damages. Or use ammo and be more efficient.

The 24" range is for me a big selling point of the pigapult so i would like it to stay. Maybe you can make it uncarriable/pushable/movable by friends to mitigate that range.

[Zebo]

I would made like the sniper rifles, range 12"(or 14", 16"...) that, with focus, doubles range AND ignores LoS (not cover). Or maybe range 24" and focus needed to ignore LoS, but rabge keeps being the same. 

 

This could be also for Lazarus's grenade launcher

[Myyrä]

5 minutes ago, Zebo said:

I would made like the sniper rifles, range 12"(or 14", 16"...) that, with focus, doubles range AND ignores LoS (not cover). Or maybe range 24" and focus needed to ignore LoS, but rabge keeps being the same. 

 

This could be also for Lazarus's grenade launcher

Heheheee, someone has never played against unnerfed Austringers.

[Zebo]

8 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Heheheee, someone has never played against unnerfed Austringers.

Don't know exactly what you mean. I've never played against them, but I've seen them  in play and never felt that were better than the Pigapult. The Pigapult in fact has now 24" range and ignores LoS and cover with higher damage spread, I'm just thinking about a way to mitigate the unavoidability of this (and in fact buffing a little bit our grenade launcher, but that's the Outcast subforum xD) 

[Adran]

13 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Don't know exactly what you mean. I've never played against them, but I've seen them  in play and never felt that were better than the Pigapult. The Pigapult in fact has now 24" range and ignores LoS and cover with higher damage spread, I'm just thinking about a way to mitigate the unavoidability of this (and in fact buffing a little bit our grenade launcher, but that's the Outcast subforum xD) 

Well since Austringers gained just a ranged increase from Focus (and suffered from gaining the ), as they already had the ignore LOS, and that is presumably considered too good since it has been removed. Its amusing to suggest that other models with better damage tracks should gain what they lost. 

[Zebo]

On 12/1/2018 at 5:20 PM, Adran said:

Well since Austringers gained just a ranged increase from Focus (and suffered from gaining the ), as they already had the ignore LOS, and that is presumably considered too good since it has been removed. Its amusing to suggest that other models with better damage tracks should gain what they lost. 

No I don't suggest to gain what they lost. Pigapult has, in fact, 24" range and ignores LoS and cover. I was suggesting to NERF that, and take out that huge range and LoS ignoration unless it focus. 

[Adran]

12 hours ago, Zebo said:

No I don't suggest to gain what they lost. Pigapult has, in fact, 24" range and ignores LoS and cover. I was suggesting to NERF that, and take out that huge range and LoS ignoraron unless it focus. 

Sorry, I misread then that it was what you wanted sniper rifles to do, rather than you wanted the pigapult to be like the current sniper rules. 

[Zebo]

Aaaaarg Ignoraron :.. (

[Nukemouse]

I don't think A&D really got nerfed, it was pretty common to take scramble on him and the scramble version costs same SS as before.

[trikk]

6 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

I don't think A&D really got nerfed, it was pretty common to take scramble on him and the scramble version costs same SS as before.

Bigger They Are >>>>>>>>>>>> Scramble on Ashes

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

8 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

I don't think A&D really got nerfed

Increasing by 1 the cost of an already expensive model with virtually no competition in it's cost range seems pointless indeed. Probably devs were afraid that people will start hiring him outside Hamelin and Levi with freshly discounted Desperate Mercenaries and preemptively increased his cost, but that's only my guess.

[trikk]

1SS increase on high cost rare 1 models is not a big deal. Same happens with Yasunori. 

Ashes got hit a lot harder with GG18 than with the errata. In most cases its just 1SS from the crews cache or just with a dropped upgrade.

[Aegnor]

I though about outcast today and for me they have some mechanics making it hard to design new models for them.

First, as mentioned already, they are mercenaries so you need to think about all faction possible broken synergy.

Also they have very strong generic upgrades : scramble, oathkeeper, scout the field.

Because they can be so strong on some model you also need to take that into account. You can't create a very heavy hitter henchman with very small walk to compensate because you could take scramble+scout the field. Or you would need very very low mobility and it would be unplayable without scramble.

Same thing with some interaction you can do. In my mind there is the tara delivery service. With it even a 0wk henchman would be able to go into melee with not so much trouble. Another limitation for your models.

 

There is some problems like this also in gremlins like iron skeeter taxi or glowy (and mercenary problem with burt and mctavish before). In both case i think the only solution is to have specific restrictions.

 

 

One other though i got about outcast is how i feel my game against them very 'hit or miss'.

You have very different crews (Jack, viks or hamelin are not played similar at all) and very specific abilities that can either be extremely powerfull or almost useless. Let me give you some examples to be more clear.

A crew with lot of ronin and desp merc (that may be something now) would be very hard to play against with ulix pigs. A freikorps crew will block a lot of damages from a rasputina crew (imagine lot of explosive demises, the bomb/decoy upgrade and so on). Now do ronin vs rasputina and VS against ulix and now the defensive abilities are doing almost nothing.

Kinda the same for things like nihilist.

Maybe it's a personal bias but very often when my opponent declare outcast i always feel a little like gambling. Collodi with lot of marionnettes will be great against xx xx and xx but it will be terrible if i face levi with the abobination summoning trigger. Lynch will be nice for xx xx or xx but if it's viks i will get rekt with all my illuminated and no anwser to the alphastrike. And so on.

I don't feel like other factions can have so different extreme abilities. If my opponent declare gremlins i know there will be lot of small things and no real big tanky model. if its neverborn i know there won't be a lot of shooting. But when it's outcast i don't really know. Don't hesitate to tell me if it's just a personal bias. I'm just telling how i feel personaly about outcast and i don't think they are op or so. I just have a lot more very one sided games against them (winning or losing) then against other factions.

[DXXXVIII]

If you play against Outcast you can expect a very small amount of pushes and mobility outside of bury shenanigans which are telegraphed like 3 activations before they happen.
Not much Model-support as well. Outcast often alpha a single model or 2 because otherwise they are slow as fck.