Ten Thunders Errata from App (NOT CONFIRMED)

[DeleteAccount]

Yamaziko, Ototo and Fuhatsu -1 SS cost

Terracota Warriro and Yasunori +1 SS cost

Misaki I have heard that her blasts now have to be planted together, range is now 8" instead of twelve and doesn´t ignore damage reductions anymore, couldn´t confirm this with the app though since it´s doing strang stuff with her upgrade, at least on my phone.

[Carecalmo]

For The Storm, as far as I can tell with the tiny upgrade text on my tablet, it says "Markers placed in this way do not need to be touching each other." EDIT: But it does say to place them within 8" and LoS and they no longer ignore damage reduction.

As for other models,

Dawn Serpent, Thunder Archer, Bunraku and Monk of High River all cost one soulstone less as well.

[DeleteAccount]

Thanks for clearing things up on Thunder mate.

[Kogan Style]

Mech. Pork chop is showing as 5ss currently, which is a great buy for Mei!

Yamaziko at 6ss is fantastic for what she brings to the table. 3 AP,  Flat damage track but with blasts is handy. Def 4 is awful but I can live with that at 6ss 

[Jesy Blue]

Yasanori and terracotta deserves the extra price point.

yamazika and ototo deserve the price drop..... no one is still gonna use fuhatsu though, sorry.  I think this makes Yamazika the cheapest henchman in the game now!

also, Dual Factioned Bunraku went down one soul stone cost also.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Jesy Blue

[Da Git]

A little bit sad about the Yamaziko change. Like Heyridden, I'd much prefer she got a stat bump instead.  In her case, Df6, Ml6. 

I'm not sure upping Yas to 13ss is going to change much.  I'd have prefered to lose Stubborn in an effort to separate him from the Riders.  He might be our "rider", but he's not a "Rider".

Agree that Fuhatsu didn't need a price drop, he needs to be able to be pushed! #laugh_off_for_braced!

Don't think Monks of High River are still going to see any table time.  Not when 10T Bros and now Charm Warders exist.

Think the rest are good!

 

[Squirrelich]

2 hours ago, Kogan Style said:

Mech. Pork chop is showing as 5ss currently, which is a great buy for Mei!

Yes sir. The 10T guy who won the last Gen Con took one at 7 SS last game of the tourney with Mei (don't know if he played Mei in earlier games or not). I don't have that kind of pedigree but when I play her in Arcanists it was already darn near an auto take for me, now I'm very much thinking of getting a second one.

[DonCheadle]

I'm fairly okay/happy with the changes. 

 

And yes, MechChop being 5 points is pretty incredible. 

 

I kinda wish HRMs had gotten an offensive buff, like +1 dmg across the board and the High River Style self damage ability over a points reduction, but I get that that wasn't in the cards. 

[DeleteAccount]

High River Monk will remain a non choice, there are still a lot of 5 SS models that are better than him in the faction. Fuhatsu may actually reach usability at 9 SS with his personal upgrade, I mean, at that point you are getting a hyper tanky model between hard to wound 2, Armor 2 and 8 wounds that can use soulstones and can shoot decently or punch your lights out, certainly looking more solid than somebody like Sidir at this point. His inability to get any third AP since his 0 is crap and no pushing him around still stop him from being an amazing option (I´d still rather pay extra, get Izamu with melee expert and + to damage in tow) but I´d say he is takeable at this point.

Dawn Serpent at 9... well meh, I´m still not that inspired to take it. It´s ranged is nice but not amazing and his melee is crap even for it´s cost with no sort of AP multiplier on it´s 0 action. Still no access to recalled training to give it a big boy turn, could probably have dropped to 8 SS frankly.

Thunder nerf on Misaki... remains to be seen if it was too much or not, but she certainly won´t be dominating anymore.

Yamaziko on the other hand is an absolute steal at 6 ss, blast damage with reach 3 and min damage 3 is pretty nice and brace is still awesome, just a budget henchman to get some powerful niche abilities and if she dies, oh well. Ototo is also looking a lot more solid at 9SS, as long as he is in a crew that forced the enemy crew to deal with him he can get stuff done as per usual, but the little discount might make him more attractive.

[Tokapondora]

Not sure I'm particularly happy with 3 more models being added to our 9 SS pool. 8-9 SS models are taking up half our roster at this point. Would've much preferred a bump in their utility.

Fuhatsu, Otto Otto, Bunraku, Archers and Monks of High River are still not going to see particularly more play I think because they still don't do something people need and now find themselves in even more competitive price brackets. Dawn Serpent being cheaper is of course nice for McCabe who I occasionally took it with, but it's not gonna make me change my hiring process. 

Yamaziko gives us a very cheap henchman, which is always nice, though I'm not sure she suddenly does enough for me to need her. But the option is nifty. I'm sure there's a Gremlinny explanation for why the Porkchop is suddenly 2 SS less but for Mei this is brilliant. I already took it whenever I took Mei anyway so a 2SS discount makes me happy. Terracotta Warrior change was fair - was getting bored of seeing them suggested in every list. Yasunori nerf doesn't seem like too big a deal, though he's now 3SS more than the other Riders which seems a bit too much. 

The one thing I feel was too far was Misaki. Losing both 4" and reduction is really eating away at the two unique roles this upgrade gave her. At 2" 2/3/5 and now no reduction an 8" just doesn't seem particularly interesting vs the 14" 's of Sonnia or Wong's nifty triggers. One or the other would've really sufficed. It kinda feels Wyrd overreacted here in a panic. 

And Running Tab is now more expensive to Terracotta Warrior away into Misdirection, especially with the more expensive TW, which I suppose means you'll now be stuck with this if you pick it. This change honestly didn't do shit for the Brewmaster, who as one of the weakest masters of the game really deserved it. 

[Tris]

Why do you compare Yasunoris point cost to the other riders and not Nekima/Ashes/Archie?

Misakis Blasts have still the same damage track as Sonnias, and the only nifty trigger on that one is burning, vs your flay.

Also, it's no real use to spread against Misakis blasts, I feel like that brings her in line with the other blasters

[Tokapondora]

@TrisI pointed at Wong for nifty triggers, though Sonnia does get to ignore LoS against burning targets, can place the initial blast marker 2" away and can get that attack up to Ca9 for hitting a target at 22" away. And all of that while she doesn't have to be in base contact with another model. 

And I compared Yasunori to the Riders because they just about share a statline. If we're comparing it to Archie/Nekima we're at a 13SS model with the same damage output that can't use soulstones. Again, not calling this change out but 3 SS just feels like an insane difference.

[Jinn]

13 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

@TrisI pointed at Wong for nifty triggers, though Sonnia does get to ignore LoS against burning targets, can place the initial blast marker 2" away and can get that attack up to Ca9 for hitting a target at 22" away. And all of that while she doesn't have to be in base contact with another model. 

And I compared Yasunori to the Riders because they just about share a statline. If we're comparing it to Archie/Nekima we're at a 13SS model with the same damage output that can't use soulstones. Again, not calling this change out but 3 SS just feels like an insane difference.

The Mechanical Rider is still 12SS, so it is only 3SS more expensive than 3/4 riders..

[Bumpasses]

Would of liked to see the Torakage drop by a point.

 

[anencephalous]

Wow, we must have been looking pretty OP relative to the other factions, because we did not get a nice errata. Clearly the worst deal of all the factions. 

Arcanists, neverborn and guild only got buffs.

Ressers got 7 buffs and 1 nurf.

Gremlins got 9 buffs and 3 nurfs.

Outcasts got 7 buffs and 3 nurfs.

We got 6 buffs and 3 nurfs, including the only negative rules change.

I am actually glad Misaki got fixed, but it does annoy me that TT overpowered models get retconned immediately - think Mei and Misaki's instant emissary modifications. While other problematic leaders in other factions stay problematic because they have always been that way. I also would have preferred to lose more range but keep the penetration.

Anyway, I have not looked at all the factions in details, but none of our buffs except Yamaziko look relevant. I know I am in the minority here, but I already believed Yamaziko was an excellent niche pick (perhaps because lures are common in the local meta).

Ototo, Monk of the High River and Fuhatsu are still probably not viable at -1. They are still "fun mode only" models. They are all models that need new rules.

The Dawn Serpent may get more play in McCabe, but it is pretty niche. It is hard to spend that much on something without recalled training on it in TT.

And Thunder Archers, I suppose you could put them in a Mei list, and they may get the occasionally use elsewhere. I really wish they had got a bundle upgrade deal like Oxfordians.

All in all, some solid nurfs, and some pretty light buffs. Compare this to some of the game changing buffs for other factions  - Guild Guard and Desperate Mercs going down to 3, for example, will really improve Guild and Outcast quality of life.

I knew TT were looking healthy at the end of last year, but I had no idea Wyrd viewed us as the top faction in need of a solid pegging back.

 

[Thottbot]

2 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

Arcanists, neverborn and guild only got buffs.

arcanists didnt get only buffs, it was mostly models that were never used that they want to make playable + make the out-of-faction beasts worth taking.

And our lord and savious Johan got nerfed :'( 

[anencephalous]

Also, I dread the coming 3/4 of the riders of the apocalypse storm.

At 10 points they will see lots of play, and late game we are sorely lacking in ways to manage that damage prevention now it was stripped from Misaki. Alpha or die I guess.

 

[anencephalous]

2 minutes ago, Thottbot said:

arcanists didnt get only buffs, it was mostly models that were never used that they want to make playable + make the out-of-faction beasts worth taking.

And our lord and savious Johan got nerfed :'( 

Again, not an arcanist specialist or anything, but Cojo and The Captain at 2 less looks pretty cool.

I understand that Johan was more arcanist that everyone else, but most factions saw use as well.

[Jinn]

23 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

Also, I dread the coming 3/4 of the riders of the apocalypse storm.

At 10 points they will see lots of play, and late game we are sorely lacking in ways to manage that damage prevention now it was stripped from Misaki. Alpha or die I guess.

 

The wording in the app differs from the wording that Aaron posted in the Errata thread.

This is what Aaron posted in the Errata thread:

• The Storm changes to: "When damaging an enemy model, this model may place all resulting  Markers anywhere in 8" of this model and within Line of Sight. Markers placed in this way do not need to be touching each other."

She may not have lost her reduction ignoring ability.

[anencephalous]

17 minutes ago, Jinn said:

The wording in the app differs from the wording that Aaron posted in the Errata thread.

This is what Aaron posted in the Errata thread:

• The Storm changes to: "When damaging an enemy model, this model may place all resulting  Markers anywhere in 8" of this model and within Line of Sight. Markers placed in this way do not need to be touching each other."

She may not have lost her reduction ignoring ability.

Ahh, fair enough. That would mean it will certainly still see play.

[Tokapondora]

3 hours ago, Jinn said:

The wording in the app differs from the wording that Aaron posted in the Errata thread.

This is what Aaron posted in the Errata thread:

• The Storm changes to: "When damaging an enemy model, this model may place all resulting  Markers anywhere in 8" of this model and within Line of Sight. Markers placed in this way do not need to be touching each other."

She may not have lost her reduction ignoring ability.

I'm pretty sure she's lost her damage reduction ignoring ability. The text on The Storm has changed to ^. If it was just about mentioning it went from 12" to 8" they wouldn't have left the "Markers placed in this way do not need to be touching each other." in there. That's the entire text of that ability. I mean I'm sure the trigger The Coming Storm is still on The Storm, I hope, but this clearly seems all they've intended to do with this ability.

I really feel they should've either went 6" but keep the damage reduction or lose the damage reduction but keep 10-12" range. Both just feels a bit overkill for a model that hasn't even been dominating tournaments, especially when you compare it to other masters.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Sometimes you get hit with the bat because the ability in question just flat out isn’t fun to play against regardless of balance.

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, anencephalous said:

 

I am actually glad Misaki got fixed, but it does annoy me that TT overpowered models get retconned immediately - think Mei and Misaki's instant emissary modifications. While other problematic leaders in other factions stay problematic because they have always been that way. I also would have preferred to lose more range but keep the penetration.

 

Getting AP every time Misaki gets a kill was not a thing that should have even made it past playtesting, of course it wasn't going to survive. Nothing released has really been as egregious as that aside from The Storm. Mei's was errata'd not because of it being OP, but because it just caused an annoying infinite loop situation.


 

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Also, I dread the coming 3/4 of the riders of the apocalypse storm.

At 10 points they will see lots of play, and late game we are sorely lacking in ways to manage that damage prevention now it was stripped from Misaki. Alpha or die I guess.

The Storm had literally no bearing on the rider's Df trigger anyways. It only made damage from blasts irreducable, and riders can't reduce damage from blasts anyways. As for ways to deal with them, snipers shooting at them turn 1, Katanaka Crime Boss gets to ignore reduction, trigger on Lone Swordsman.

[dancater]

8 hours ago, anencephalous said:

Again, not an arcanist specialist or anything, but Cojo and The Captain at 2 less looks pretty cool.

I understand that Johan was more arcanist that everyone else, but most factions saw use as well.

The Captain is now dropped into the realm of takeable, in all honesty and I'm happy to acknowledge that Arcanists have some truly stellar henchman, especially in the more expensive points range with Carlos, Cassandra and Joss all deserving of significant attention.  Arcanists had, unlike many other factions with only one or two really vanilla choices a overabundance of great options in the 9+SS range, not only in henchman either, so the Captain was an very expensive henchman who struggled to fulfill his potential in a faction with many models, often cheaper then him, who were simply better.  

Reducing the Captain means you'll likely see him but its not a huge faction buff and more a inner-faction henchman balance adjustment.

Now Cojo I am prepared to acknowledge may be a big deal.  Yes he is Rare-1 so that is a potential saving point, can't spam him.  But, he looks to be great value now and have some real potential point efficient irritation value for many crews. 

Obviously Arcanists did pretty well, especially if you're Marcus, which is odd because his was a crew which was already upper tier.

But I doubt Arcanist crews full of Hoarcat prides are going to suddenly overrun tournaments, you just might see some more of them.  Also remember that there is the indirect nerf value of a points reduction to a different model.   

So Bayou Gremlins got a kinda nerf because they are suddenly not unique as 3SS significant minions.  The Mech Rider was nerfed (again) by not being reduced in cost when each of the other 'classic' riders was (I think its a good enough model still that I'm OK with this incidentally).  A number of other models have been in effect 'reduced' in power and frequency of play because other models were actually reduced in cost.

Overall I think the TT changes are not terrible, several models that rarely saw the table now will, some models which were a little on the hideously common and nasty to play side will not have competition.  I think the Orian was a big loser, the poor Last Blossom seductress seems to have been left out in the cold dark street.  

[anencephalous]

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Overall I think the TT changes are not terrible, several models that rarely saw the table now will,

That was my point, really, that I do not think this is the case. Most of our buffs are what you call "inner-faction balance", in that they go from not usable to slightly cheaper but still not usable. I really don't think this errata will see any of the buffed models getting more table time except Yamaziko, who has already seen lots of table time around my way.

To put is another way, Ototo and Fuhatsu will not be "in rotation". They are not gracing the tournament tables, even at one point cheaper - their flaws are way beyond a one point fix.

I am not saying the nurfs were unfair or unfounded. People hate Yas with a passion, and Storm Misaki was genuinely rubbish. But we got nothing really to compensate us for that. On the other hand, Arcanists got all buffs, and there was no change to say, December Acolytes, models that have been receiving more than their fair share of hate mail since 2013. As per my original observation, this implies that TT were considerably stronger than Arcanists (and everyone else), and needed pulling back.

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Sometimes you get hit with the bat because the ability in question just flat out isn’t fun to play against regardless of balance.

And yet - Viks. The two times Misaki has been ruining games before turn two finished, it was immediately fixed as a problem. When Viks ruin games turn two it is a core master mechanic that will not be changed.