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That sounds kind of weird, considering the fact that nowhere in the rules is anything mentioned about building the models or diodramas or whatever. Just by reading them, I would have thought it would be okay to paint something entirely built by someone else.

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8 hours ago, haychdee said:

 

 

 

Stark was removed by the Wyrd guys over an issue with his entry.

He was struggling to get a certain shaped display base and some bits of scenery he wanted for his entry so a friend of his offered to make them for him. The friend built Stark the main shell to the display base and 2 little tables for decoration. Stark then continued on to build the remaining majority before going on to paint it all up.

Another participant (who will remain nameless) in the comp who knows Stark in person messaged him to ask if said friend had helped him with some of the build. Believing he was talking with a friend his told him honestly that yes he’d had a few of the elements made for him. The nameless friend then decided to screen cap the message thread and submit it to Wyrd highlighting that Stark had received assistance. Wyrd emailed Stark and told him they decided to pull his entry. Stark offered an argument in defence but received no reply from Wyrd, game over!

Now at this point I’m sure opinions will be divided. The fact that a Gold tier participant received assistance with his entry instantly raises questions. But IMHO I don’t see the issue with Stark receiving help with his base building. I don’t see the difference between using purchased pre-made scenery or having it built by a friend. If I buy set of resin crates to use in the diorama I wouldn’t be penalised, but by this ruling if a friend made me a some crates I’d be out of the comp. He built the diorama just like any other participant, using whatever materials available to get it looking how he wanted.

He then went on to paint it 100% himself. Being a painting competition and all I would have thought that was the main criteria for being judged on. Sure, the diorama may score you points for theme and ascetic but I’m pretty certain 99% of the entrants have used 3rd party materials. I just don’t see what the difference is between your 3rd party materials being commercially manufactured or custom made. And as far as I can tell there’s nothing in rules regarding the source of building materials. I think it’s a given that you’re expected to paint it all by yourself but perhaps Wyrd need to clearly state the T&C’s to what parts you can use.

Great painter, disappointing ruling.

That is very sad. I can't see anyting in the rules which say that some of this is prohibited

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Apart from a "friend" that is not, the ruling would depend on intent. We all use pre-built components for our entries. Usually at least the miniature. In that regard it's the same.

Voting does consist of "artistic impression" and "theme". Base and scenery of a diorama feature into the voting heavily therefore. As long as no artistic achievement is explicitly claimed by passing it off as own scratchbuilt, I am OK. Simple omission to say:"Scratch built by a friend" is not reason imo for elimination.

In turn, that would mean I would have to list the manufacturer of each part clearly to avoid that. With my bitzbox that would not even be possible...

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This isn't and wasn't a bitz box.

Plenty of people DNF the competition because they don't have time to complete it - having someone create or help with it to save time sort of defeats the purpose whether the final painting was done entirely by the individual. 

Also not going to debate it. It goes against the rules and purpose of this contest. I understand some folks may feel otherwise, if I need to explain it out that no other individual needs to be working on said entry then we'll do so down to the point of stupidity so that there are no 'but you didn't say explicitly....' in the future. 

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So to be perfectly clear said friend would have had to have been selling said pieces before the competition to be able to be used in his display?

I fully understand the purpose of the contest I just don't want anyone else to get disqualified for using bought items in their displays.

Crappy that such drama was brought into what has been a fun painting competition. It does remind me of old GW golden Daemon competitions where someone paid someone else to paint their entry and was winning awards with it.

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I think it is hard to judge this case.

Where is the limit of using commercially produced items and individually produced parts of other people. I think, that Stark should have mentioned it proactively and everything would have been fine. I can understand, that Wyrd decided this way, because if you start allowing it, the next time, the whole scene is being built by someone else. As we saw in the discussion diorama vs. Single miniature, construction is part of this competition. So it will be judged. If you give the impression, that you built something, that you did not built yourself, it is fraud. But is is hard to see if something is scratch built or commercially bought.

I am NOT saying, that Stark is betraying, I just think, he made a mistake in judging, what is okay and what is not. Perhaps a warning would have been sufficient.

On the other side, Wyrd should have been more open regarding the issue. Why did then not inform us about it ? Wyrd could have stated the problem and Stark could have commented on it. This way, we don't really know what happened, because we don't know the details.

By the way, the Golden Demon case, where a bought artwork from Bohun was entered is a different case because it was clearly against the rules.

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59 minutes ago, Joe Cool said:

I am NOT saying, that Stark is betraying, I just think, he made a mistake in judging, what is okay and what is not. Perhaps a warning would have been sufficient.

 

I had a look at his display again. I can see that base shape being an issue to cut without the right tablesaw setup. The table was so simple he should have just made that himself, it looks like 6 pieces that likely took no time at all. Shame someone was so butt hurt by it to set him up like that but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I can remember a couple GD drama cases but that one stands out as one I remember. Guess a line has to be drawn in did I buy this piece myself and did I paint this piece myself vs did someone else build this piece for me and did someone else paint this piece for me.

I have zero issues with someone else cutting that base piece, better to save finger to get that one done. The table (as simple as it was) was likely the tipping point of a bad judgement call.

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First of all, what a douchy move by his "friend" to tell on him. And i agree with the majority here, he should not have been removed from the competition.

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50 minutes ago, Dirty said:

First of all, what a douchy move by his "friend" to tell on him. And i agree with the majority here, he should not have been removed from the competition.

Totally agree with you. What his "friend" did was lame and should be totally ashamed of, I guess that he/she must be hurting for losing against Stark in a previous painting contest. The right thing to do instead of capturing a screenshot of a private conversation (really?) would be talking with him about the matter and pointing it out that it might go against the rules; what's more, I'd in that case have contacted whoever is running the show and ask about it without giving names, then go back to Stark and let him know. 

On a personal note, I saddens me deeply since I've talked many times with Stark here and on FB and he's a great guy, if requested I'm pretty sure he would have changed his entry. Once said that, it's Wyrd's show and their rules, so nothing to add there. 

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12 hours ago, Nathan Caroland said:

It goes against the rules and purpose of this contest. I understand some folks may feel otherwise, if I need to explain it out that no other individual needs to be working on said entry then we'll do so down to the point of stupidity so that there are no 'but you didn't say explicitly....' in the future. 

Purpose sure but I don’t think this breached any clear rules which is part of the problem. I understand Iron Painter isn’t exactly Golden Demon and you don’t need to reach a “point of stupidity” clarifying the T&C’s but a brief line in next year’s description will avoid any similar instances cropping up. All of the wording is geared around painting and the painters so I think it’s understandably a grey area when it comes to construction. Opinions are obviously divided and though I don’t agree with it entirely I do understand your reasoning, it’s just a shame that the outcome was so severe.

 

11 hours ago, Stonewall78 said:

So to be perfectly clear said friend would have had to have been selling said pieces before the competition to be able to be used in his display?

And there lies the grey area. I would assume that Wyrd would intend you only to use bought goods from regular stores. But does that rule out marketplaces like Etsy where more custom items are available or 1 off bits of laser cut terrain from eBay. Who knows. I get why they did what they did, I just don’t think it was handled all too well.

 

11 hours ago, Joe Cool said:

Perhaps a warning would have been sufficient.

Even a score of zero for the round and a community announcement would have perhaps been a more suitable penalty. Removing a Gold tier painter that late in the competition when no clear rules have been broken seems overly severe. I know Stark intends to have no further interaction with Wyrd events which is just a shame as he’s a talented guy and a credit to the hobby but I’d most likely take the same stance in his position.

 

9 hours ago, Stonewall78 said:

The table (as simple as it was) was likely the tipping point of a bad judgement call.

I think you’re maybe right here. Had it been just the base then maybe this would have been a different story as there are plenty of custom base venders out there. Perhaps the ‘friend’ may had been less inclined to squeal as well.

 

All in all Bad Things Happen I guess...

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IF that's a stance/issue They may want to look into declaring where you get your bits from.  I know a lot of people post the manufactures for models.  I have here and there, but often I get "JUST accept the #$!@% post!!!" with the computer I may leave details out.  And also expect, "this is from my Mini Horde, its at least 5 years old. I do not know".  This is a hard judgement to make, because there will always be someone at the line.  I know a previous year I had someone more adept with power tools cut the wood into the shapes I wanted.  yes I glued things together and painted it.  I might have been able to find the sizes and shapes on line and shipped them in time when they were not at local hobby stores.  But end of the day that was simple for him to do and I kept my fingers.

And the advantages of 3 D printers are really clear too.

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2 hours ago, easily_mused said:

And the advantages of 3 D printers are really clear too.

But what if you didn't design the 3D file... there is a huge slipper slope here.

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Thank you guys for your support, I finally can show up and say some words. 

First of all I want to wish Merry Christmas to all, it's soon and I'm not sure that I'll be here before it)

Second, many of you asking where's my entry, sorry for long answer, for the past three weeks, I have hardly been on the Internet( Now you know,@haychdee is correct and I was elliminated from competition.  It's sad, but sadder than what did that "friend" of mine (who also participant of Iron Painter too).

I have only one question, @Nathan Caroland said that I went against the rules.

On 20.12.2017 at 12:48 AM, Nathan Caroland said:

It goes against the rules and purpose of this contest.

What exactly rule I broke? I read very carefully rules and there's no point about building entry with someone's participation. Or anything similar. If that very important clarification is "the point of stupidity", then I have nothing to say. A lot of great artist creating collaborated projects together, one for sculpting one for painting. It takes months! Here I asked a much less help in 2 weeks round. 
For me it seems that Wyrd trying their best to not allow Russian and Eastern Europe painters win again. I've heard that regular victories in Wyrd's painting comp. of painters from that region is a real splinter for Wyrd. Now it seems to have reason - pairing strong russian-against russian in silver, elliminating me for breaking non-existent rule...

But that's not really matters. I learned some cool tricks via this competition, so I  feel not so sorry for the time wasted. So thank you) I wish to Wyrd to develop and improve your contest, it's unique and some way cool, because push your limits) 

Here's the image of my entry, I know that pictures is sucks, but it's huge. I was taking pictures 4 hours before deadline at the early morning with 2 cameras)) It's clickable

39717_original.jpg

 

And here's the reason why I was forced for asking help - opening new hobby-center in Moscow. If you will be here, come to say "Hi!" and drink coffee/tea))

 

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7 hours ago, Stark said:

What exactly rule I broke? I read very carefully rules and there's no point about building entry with someone's participation. Or anything similar. If that very important clarification is "the point of stupidity", then I have nothing to say. A lot of great artist creating collaborated projects together, one for sculpting one for painting. It takes months! Here I asked a much less help in 2 weeks round. 

 

Iron Painter, not Iron Painters. This is not a collaborative. You are a damn talented individual and other than time, you had no need for help. Granted, a great reason to be short on time with opening a new business venture, but still - not exactly a reason for a pass either. 

 

7 hours ago, Stark said:

For me it seems that Wyrd trying their best to not allow Russian and Eastern Europe painters win again. I've heard that regular victories in Wyrd's painting comp. of painters from that region is a real splinter for Wyrd. Now it seems to have reason - pairing strong russian-against russian in silver, elliminating me for breaking non-existent rule...


I'm going to be slightly unprofessional and drive my employees crazy right now.

Horse shit. 

I don't care where you are from, who you are, or your background. As a matter of fact, I don't even get involved in the judging of this in the least - and the only time I've had to step in this whole competition when there was the question that has arisen about your entry. Load of talented individuals out there, matter of fact, I spend a fair amount of funds purchasing paint projects from them (including, yes, quite a number of Russian and Eastern Europe painters). At the end of the day, I'm interested in the finished product, not exactly who did what and where they came from. 

 

7 hours ago, Stark said:

And here's the reason why I was forced for asking help - opening new hobby-center in Moscow. If you will be here, come to say "Hi!" and drink coffee/tea))

 

Congratulations on your endeavor and best of luck with it. The picture of the red head looking through the window is the best. :)

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9 hours ago, Stark said:

For me it seems that Wyrd trying their best to not allow Russian and Eastern Europe painters win again. I've heard that regular victories in Wyrd's painting comp. of painters from that region is a real splinter for Wyrd. Now it seems to have reason - pairing strong russian-against russian in silver, elliminating me for breaking non-existent rule...

I just lost a ton of respect for you with this comment. Throwing ones geographical location into a competition about painting little figures... This isn't the olympics where you are going to get kicked out for using steroids, it is a small painting competition spanning world wide. Grow up and stop painting yourself the victim of your location.

It is actually refreshing to see Nathan call you out like that. I would much rather he speak his mind then bow to such drivel. Second off, why the heck would they care where the winner was from?

/donewiththisdrammathread

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It was your own Friend that did you in.  Not any Wyrd Geographical Bias.  If the Argument was "I live in Podunck no-where and We cant even get Amazon Drones so I have to recruit talent to get Bits many can Buy" .  And you seem to imply it was done for time constraints yourself.

I am Concern with Nathans Response in I worry he does not know who "The Red head" is.

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5 hours ago, Nathan Caroland said:

I'm going to be slightly unprofessional and drive my employees crazy right now.

Horse shit. 

I don't care where you are from, who you are, or your background. As a matter of fact, I don't even get involved in the judging of this in the least - and the only time I've had to step in this whole competition when there was the question that has arisen about your entry. Load of talented individuals out there, matter of fact, I spend a fair amount of funds purchasing paint projects from them (including, yes, quite a number of Russian and Eastern Europe painters). At the end of the day, I'm interested in the finished product, not exactly who did what and where they came from. 

Fair enough, my apologies(( That was stupid of me
 

 

5 hours ago, Nathan Caroland said:

Congratulations on your endeavor and best of luck with it. The picture of the red head looking through the window is the best. :)

Thank you! :D

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Well, now everything's said and done, I think we could close the matter if Stark invites us to Moscow to see that amazing hobby center of his! Nathan, you can get the flight tickets, I'll pay the drinks!

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@Stark
I totally missed all of this "drama" all I knew was that you had dropped out. I don't have much to say on the matter as I kind of see both sides but there is a huge grey area in there. 
The part I find the most annoying is that this "friend" decided to drop you in it after helping you!!! Some friend... 

Of all the people in the competition I claim the right to be the most annoyed with you as you knocked me out of the Gold Tier in round 3 (quite rightly) :P

I am sad it's ended this way for you but hope you will be back next year so I can get my revenge brush vs brush. 
Good luck with your game centre, it looks absolutely amazing!!! 

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