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Schemes & Stones Kevin K's Lucius


Khyodee

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TL:DNL:

The list:

Lucius, Deep pockets +(condescending(almost always?), surprisingly loyal, or legalese)

Scribe:

2 Thrall

Jury
2 austringers (expect to switch to monster hunters, or possibly some investigators)

One of: Guardian, Queller, doppelganger

I'm not going to go through their reasonings, listen to their good work!

My Thoughts- I like the Jury, but he rarely makes my Lucius lists. 

At the end he talks about MH, but it should really change his analysis.  He kind of liked vendetta already.  I really like vendetta with monster hunter.  It is almost a gimme with lucius available to give extra actions.

I'm not seeing the Queller being worth it, compared to the investigator.

 

 

 

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Great podcast! 

I don't have the latest models but the austringer + Jury trick sounds mean. :) 

I have gotten great value out of condescending. When they can't cheat it means I have pretty great control over which duels I'd like to win. When the enemy throws a big scary model at me I can condescend it and then go to town with plusflips. I killed Talos in a recent game without needing to cheat a single card on attacks because my plusflips in combination with him not being able to cheat meant his hand was useless. Defensively it's probably not better than red tape but offensively it can be pretty massive. Tieing wp with Lucius should be possible against most non-masters which then completely negates their hand.

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13 minutes ago, Legislat said:

condescending = Jury + Austringer, but Austringer is basically against the whole opponents team.

Spending 1ss or 20 ss is a pretty big difference. I have never had trouble with needing more than three upgrades on Lucius, what upgrades are you taking that don't allow you to fit condescending in? 

I don't think they're the same thing at all, autringers are more anti-summoner and condescending is anti-forward beater.  The bird-jury requires considerable resources in the form of ap and cards apart from the lost opportunity of all those soulstones. Against a backfield summoner the austringers will outshine condescending so bad that they're not comparable but if you have someone in your face condescending has a very similar effect for a much much lower cost. Austringers are squishy too so kind of require your table to be able to hide them in decent spots within 12" of where your opponent will be.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Spending 1ss or 20 ss is a pretty big difference. I have never had trouble with needing more than three upgrades on Lucius, what upgrades are you taking that don't allow you to fit condescending in? 

I don't think they're the same thing at all, autringers are more anti-summoner and condescending is anti-forward beater.  The bird-jury requires considerable resources in the form of ap and cards apart from the lost opportunity of all those soulstones. Against a backfield summoner the austringers will outshine condescending so bad that they're not comparable but if you have someone in your face condescending has a very similar effect for a much much lower cost. Austringers are squishy too so kind of require your table to be able to hide them in decent spots within 12" of where your opponent will be.

I usually take only Deep Pockets and sometimes one more upgrade to fit the scheme pool (Legalise or Surp. Loyal). Before that i often used him without upgrades at all.

Jury and Austringer worth every bit of their cost, they are not hired only for that card trick. They dont require ton of resources either. There are plenty of low def targets around. And if the opponent cheats its even better for you 90% of the time, because you can cheat with less effort  with 7 stat. 3 cards lost instead of 2 for opponent. And i dont actually take more then 1 austringer. It is usually enough. If the opponent tries to alpha strike my austringer - even better for me, i wont shed any tears for 6 stone model and often this will be a trade in my favor.

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If you only take two upgrades then how can it not be worth the upgrade slot?! You aren't sacrificing a slot because it would be empty otherwise. :D

It might not be worth the ss with that setup but he did mention replacing austringers with other minions in which case it might be useful to have condescending again. 

The austringer + Jury trick could really make guild a force to be reckoned with. It's an insanely strong discard ability. When it is errata'd into oblivion condescending will come back in style. ;) 

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3 minutes ago, Legislat said:

Dim bulb is not really that stong. Just compare it to Molly's or Brewmaster -flips shenanigans. Really. 

This is an ability on Lucius, you shouldn't compare it to other masters but 4ss minions. :P I doubt that will see errata, I was saying the Jury will very possibly get a "no austringer" clause to her ability like som many other guild models before her. ;) 

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8 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

This is an ability on Lucius, you shouldn't compare it to other masters but 4ss minions. :P I doubt that will see errata, I was saying the Jury will very possibly get a "no austringer" clause to her ability like som many other guild models before her. ;) 

I honestly don't think its that strong. Jury is an offensive model and wasting her time to be near an austringer doesn't seem super efficient. Austringers are pretty average now so if you invest 14-15SS to get some card denial it doesn't seem groundbreaking. With the 18" range it would be super good though

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Just now, trikk said:

I honestly don't think its that strong. Jury is an offensive model and wasting her time to be near an austringer doesn't seem super efficient. Austringers are pretty average now so if you invest 14-15SS to get some card denial it doesn't seem groundbreaking. With the 18" range it would be super good though

What he said. I already have an extensive experience with the Jury+Austringer combo and it is nice with carefull planning but by no means gamebreaking. I'd say it just demands some attention from opponent. That is strong by itself.

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Austringers with their 18" range weren't anywhere near gamebreaking either, they were just not super enjoayble to face. I'd say this trick falls within the same category. If this becomes a common tactic I think we will see a cuddle. If it stays kind of rare it will be left alone.

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14 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Austringers with their 18" range weren't anywhere near gamebreaking either, they were just not super enjoayble to face. I'd say this trick falls within the same category. If this becomes a common tactic I think we will see a cuddle. If it stays kind of rare it will be left alone.

Assuming you both cheat its 2 cards for 3 and your beater is out for most of the game.

 

Austringers with 18" range were pretty good. They were almost autopicked because sh7 with severe 4 killed most scheme runners

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6 hours ago, trikk said:

Assuming you both cheat its 2 cards for 3 and your beater is out for most of the game.

 

This is my problem.  Yes they do cause a very specific problem for summoners, but rarely are you getting this going first turn.  So you get it going after they have started summoning.  Assuming we are talking two austringers and the jury, that's 20 points that isn't doing anything else and you spend cards to do this.  To have the other 30 pts of your crew win the game at that point seems like a tall task.

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I would have been interested in hearing his take on Vogel. With the Jury around to make :mask triggers easy to hit it seem like Vogel will be able to get a lot of mileage out of his tactical action that allows another model to push 6 inches and make a 1AP close attack. He’s also another source of Red Tape, and the “no attacks without discarding” version of Censure seems like it would play nice with the the strategy of burning through your opponent’s hand.

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