Schemes & Stones Pre-Jan 2018 Errata (Gremlins)

[Khyodee]

Let us know what you think about the Gremlin models/upgrades we discuss in this episode here.

http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-77-pre-jan-2018-errata-thoughts/

[lame0]

Tbh I didn't love the discussion about gremlins. I think gremlins are tied with outcasts for most internal imbalance. I would say a majority of our range is actually pretty bad compared to our "good" stuff so we get pigeonholed into a few models. One thing besides just the case by case discussion that I thought was weird was that you guys said we never take high stone models because we have such good 7-8 stone models. I think the real issue is that we don't have a yas, nekima or archie. I mean we don't even have a real "rider" and weirdly enough out high SS models tend to have less ap than our low SS models. I mean if Mancha Roja was better than wk 5 ch 5 ml  rg 1 on the charge then he could be okay. Honestly he needs ch 8 (if you keep his ml rg 1) and adaptive (the ability bishop has to choose a suit) I think that would be okay and would let him do some coolish stuff. You could also go a different more defensive route and give him instinctual & make the tomb give +1df & +1 wp which would make him work so much better. +1 df/wp + challenge would be cool and would provide the extra beef needed to make challenge work on Mancha. Personally I like the instinctual route better. 

Bushwackers don't cycle with mah like Jacob stated. They still discard (only mah cycles when she discards with her new upgrade). I will say they are better with her than before since they can take the 8 inch push every turn but I still don't see them getting any table time as is even in a mah crew. I think the little lass is more likely to get table time since shes basically always 4ss 5 wounds armor +1 with walk and ch 6 and the same triggers -crit strike. So shes basically just as survivable (def & wp 5 + armor vs df & wp 6), very similar combat, and when lass eventually dies she gives Mah +1 armor for the rest of the game all for 2ss less. I also highly doubt anyone will be taking lass + a bushwacker because then there is to much discard in a crew & faction that likes to cheat a ton without much card draw (especially since mah's ability to cycle really makes it likely you have to toss what would be a good card). Personally I would make them 5ss and lower the def to 5. Then they can kind of compete with little lass, slop haulers, & lightning bugs in a mah list (situationally decent). 

For the whiskey golem I think you guys went though it quick but I think if you didn't want to have to change anything else on the card I agree that 8ss would make it an option. If you gave it smokey finish as a (0) or + 1 wound then I think 9ss would be good. 

Moon shinobi are doomed but I think if you made them 5ss and reckless then they could be considered vs certain matchups (they would still be worse than lightning bugs in most situations in terms of damage.) You could remove the 0 if it gave them a bit 2 much mobility.

Personally I'm surprised lenny didn't get any love he is not taken often right now and his nerf hit him hard. I would just make him a henchman and thats it. Then he becomes a better summoner and it lets you spend some stones protecting him if needed. 

wild boar with pig charge would be great but I think the issue is that 13" walk + charge range + from the shadows could make for some pretty annoying games making an all out alpha list even more of a pain. I'd probably just make them 5ss and thats that. 

Last thing I would change is Sparks. honestly I think no gremlin players currently take him because he is so resource intensive and his effects just are not worth wasting two 6+ (one suited) cards and a scrap marker a turn. I think his "metal platin' means your a robot" should give armor & the construct characteristic for the rest of the game (like the new steam fitter). Then he would provide a nice buff (fast or armor) each turn and wouldn't be so resource intensive. I think a clause like "if a model is already a construct it can not be targeted by this ability" would make it fine especially since he is rare one and at most one model would become a construct per turn. This would also alleviate the issue that we don't have enough decent constructs to play a construct themed list. Also since wind' em up is non-leader already it makes sure you wont have 4 ap masters. 

Of the errata I said above I would love the whiskey golem, sparks & mancha roja (instinctual) changes since I think they would fill gaps and bring a different playstyle to the gremlin faction. Most of the other models would just compete with the "good" stuff that gremlins already have and would end up getting brushed off to the side most of the time anyway.  Whiskey and sparks would give us cool construct play and could make for some very different lists while mancha would bring a much needed defensive model for the faction.  Also these buffs would be great for brewmaster since giving him armor +1, making his whiskey golem strong and a more efficient mancha making models take more wp duels in brewmaster's intoxication bubble. 

Btw the idea of the episode was great and im sure its tough to make everyone happy haha. I love the schemes and stones & max value podcasts so I'm happy you guys made the episode :D. 

[Goodtest]

What Mah's crew should fix at first is Get Off My Land. Compared to Frozen Hearts and Black Blood, this characteristic ability is useless.

That's why I dislike Manifest Destiny, the upgrade of Get Off My Land should release after Errata. Bushwackers can benefit a lot from this.

I suggest to change into this:

When an enemy model activate or end their activation into this model's 3'. This model may discard a card, then the target must pass a 12WK duel or gain Slow condition.

 

As for Mah, she is really worth 4' built in state card. Because she is the worst melee Master above all faction.

 

[anumberone]

 I thought what Travis and company was pretty spot on, except maybe for bayou bushwhackers. If they could cycle cards as Jacob assumed they'd be fine but they are a stone over costed and should get a zero focus. 

[the tick]

Personally I still think the Survivors need some sort of major change. Maybe: +1 wound, give them the gun without making them flip for it and/or some sort of way to heal with a scrap marker. Just some ideas.

Then there's the Emissary. I think an easy fix would be forcing it to choose a keyword at the start of the game: Construct, Pig, Gremlin. That way it's got at least SOME synergy, without that it's just a beautiful centerpiece.

[anumberone]

 1 extra wound or 1 stone less would be even better for the survivors. I'd take them in certain situations for 4 stones. But maybe that's too much.

 Emmisary getting the pig key word would be great for Ulix. I've wanted to use him for a while. Such a cool model.

[Dogmantra]

On 20/11/2017 at 3:16 PM, the tick said:

Then there's the Emissary. I think an easy fix would be forcing it to choose a keyword at the start of the game: Construct, Pig, Gremlin. That way it's got at least SOME synergy, without that it's just a beautiful centerpiece.

I can see why they didn't want to give the emissary the Gremlin characteristic for Som'er because it's not like he needs more great synergy, but I am still really baffled that Ulix's upgrade doesn't give the Emissary the pig characteristic. It's more expensive than other 50mm pigs, doesn't have a significantly better melee attack than someone like Old Major, and imo his is one of the weakest emissary upgrades in faction.

[the tick]

9 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

I can see why they didn't want to give the emissary the Gremlin characteristic for Som'er because it's not like he needs more great synergy, but I am still really baffled that Ulix's upgrade doesn't give the Emissary the pig characteristic. It's more expensive than other 50mm pigs, doesn't have a significantly better melee attack than someone like Old Major, and imo his is one of the weakest emissary upgrades in faction.

Fair point, I don't own Som'er yet so didn't consider that. Then maybe a fix would be adding the keyword via the Conflux upgrades? It feels like the Emissary has this massive personality identity crisis that (IMO) is a reflection of what's happening with the faction. Strictly from a design standpoint I think the "aesthetic synergy" of the Wave 5 gremlins wasn't strong and besides most things looking like gremlins there isn't a whole lot of cohesiveness to the design, again, this is just my opinion.

My perception is that within most (all?) factions there is some degree if sub-faction nature that lends itself towards thematic designs for masters and their crews. In Gremlins you still see this but all that thematic/aesthetic cohesiveness is unravelling.

The Gremlin Masters are family patriarchs/matriarchs or gang leaders. Som'er's in a good spot thematically I think. Ophelia really needs some Lacroix minions to round her family feel, Mah Tucket could use with some "Tucket Rangers" or some other bandits from her group, Ulix could get some apprentice pig trainers from his village with their overfed piglets (between a piglet and a wild boar), Sky Pirate "volunteers" (conscripts) for Zipp...you get the idea. And now that I've completely gone off the rails from the discussion of errata....

I tend to agree with the opinion I've seen on here that the band of models that work well and are actually worth using is narrower with Gremlins than other factions. I've got no problem with debuffs/nerfs as needed but there are models within the faction that I really want to work and they just don't. I'm a grad students so, even as a casual player, I can't afford to experiment with units that have great looking models and then flop in a game. And if I'm being perfectly honest, after the last two erratas I'm not buying any more Gremlin models until I see how January works out. If the imbalance doesn't start trending in the right direction I'm most likely going to ditch the faction and try Ten Thunders.