Schemes & Stones Pre-Jan 2018 Errata (Neverborn)

[Khyodee]

Let us know what you think about the Neverborn models/upgrades we discuss in this episode here.

http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-77-pre-jan-2018-errata-thoughts/

[Angelshard]

Really interresting episode.

I think the idea of fixing scion and Angel with upgrades so newcomers don't have to find an errata is really good.

I don't agree that scion should have one card removal though. As I've argued before, having a condition removal that is guaranteed, is certain to go through and doesn't mess with your activation order is really good. I'd rather see him buffed in other ways.

I'll also really like the idea of a suited trigger on vasilisa and turning her into a tank that can work with masters outside of collodi.

[Da Git]

Great episode as usual!  A lot of great ideas floating around there!

Super surprised the Gorar wasn't mentioned as that thing is horrible!

• I've waxed lyrical about the Gorar, but basically I'd like to see Ca5 and the respawn work anywhere within 2" of the centre line.  This fits more thematically with the ley line fluff and would make it much easier to hide and whilst not just being able to be kept within your deployment zone.  It would also mean it wouldn't be a bad scheme runner hunter so would hopefully see more use.

Definitely the Scion of Black Blood should be on this list!  I liked a lot of your ideas and I'd hope to see something like this: a 0ss Upgrade that gives it the following.

• Keep Blessing of the Blood 2 cards or 1 card if it's a Mask, two cards is just sooooo much, I can't remember the last time I had two cards to throw away.  But 1 card is probably too good, so a Mask I think is a great compromise.
• Give it HtW Loved this idea!
• Built in suits would be perfect!  I'd go Rams to its Shoot & Melee as they make the most sense by far, are very thematic and are what the model needs IMO.

I also loved your ideas with Angel Eyes, especially From the Shadows!  I'd loved to see this become a bit of a theme and her become an extremely slippery model.  Again with a 0ss upgrade (I'm gunna name it Shadow Hunter)

• From The Shadows
• Built in Masks on Rifle and claws (synergises nicely with Scion's Rams!)

Aeslin! 

• To me, she really seems geared to be close up there in the thick of it between Wicked Silence, Leaves on the Wind and the gun icon on Rot and Rend.  The problem as you said is that she's too slow and dies to easily.  I loved the ideas here to build in the suit for Wicked Silence to get free pushes to speed her up and Armour.  She's wearing a bloody tree ffs!  Get rid of Wild Magic to make space for armour.
• I'd also like to see her go up to Wk6, Cg8.
• I'd keep the gun icon on Rot and Rend but up the Claw to Rn2".  This really gets her geared for combat as she can never not randomise, but is really good at getting in there and dropping scheme markers for damage and to use her (0) for neg casts.

Have never really looked at Beckoners but loved all the ideas here!

Don't like Collodi, so never looked at Vasilisa.  But loved the idea to make her a melee debuffer.

Don't own or use Spawn Mother, but won't say no to the suggested changes!

Looking forward to the next show!

[Xekros]

I must admit my surprise that The Claw wasn't mentioned, as I've never even heard him talked about, let alone taken in a list. With that said, I'd consider making the trigger on his challenge a , or just write it into the ability, since it's already very conditional, and can be prevented anyway if the opponent really wants to, so it's not very useful against the targets you actually want to use it on. Additionally, the range on the  version of the spear is identical to his charge threat, which makes it unlikely to be used, due to the extra complications inherent in  actions. Maybe give it a trigger to use the (0) immediately afterwards but only if you use the , but make it on a  or written in again, due to the conditionality of it.

 

@Da Git For Aeslin, I've always gotten the opposite feeling of what she's trying to be; specifically, ranged support for the minions who should be taking the charge for the Queen's advisor. Not to say you're wrong, but I feel that the rest of that thematic crew has enough in the way of melee disruption, and other than Candy, I can't think of any ranged support style henchmen in Neverborn. To wit I'd say make As Leaves on Wind apply a  to all enemy Ca actions that target a model within  6, and remove the  from Rot and Rend (and the Wild Magic ability, as it's no longer relevant). Side note: would there be a reason to keep the  on it at that point, as both that and A Wicked Silence are Ca 6 vs Wp for disengaging?

I do agree that the Gorar needs help, though, and those do look good.

I do agree about the episode's thoughts on Candy as well.

I haven't had enough experience with the others to make any sort of relevant comments.

[santaclaws01]

6 hours ago, Xekros said:

I must admit my surprise that The Claw wasn't mentioned, as I've never even heard him talked about, let alone taken in a list. With that said, I'd consider making the trigger on his challenge a , or just write it into the ability, since it's already very conditional, and can be prevented anyway if the opponent really wants to, so it's not very useful against the targets you actually want to use it on. Additionally, the range on the  version of the spear is identical to his charge threat, which makes it unlikely to be used, due to the extra complications inherent in  actions. Maybe give it a trigger to use the (0) immediately afterwards but only if you use the , but make it on a  or written in again, due to the conditionality of it.

 

@Da Git For Aeslin, I've always gotten the opposite feeling of what she's trying to be; specifically, ranged support for the minions who should be taking the charge for the Queen's advisor. Not to say you're wrong, but I feel that the rest of that thematic crew has enough in the way of melee disruption, and other than Candy, I can't think of any ranged support style henchmen in Neverborn. To wit I'd say make As Leaves on Wind apply a  to all enemy Ca actions that target a model within  6, and remove the  from Rot and Rend (and the Wild Magic ability, as it's no longer relevant). Side note: would there be a reason to keep the  on it at that point, as both that and A Wicked Silence are Ca 6 vs Wp for disengaging?

I do agree that the Gorar needs help, though, and those do look good.

I do agree about the episode's thoughts on Candy as well.

I haven't had enough experience with the others to make any sort of relevant comments.

Rot and Rend is vs df, and the claw also means she can use it on a charge. As for removing the gun, that's not a good idea. Then she'd have a min 4 attack at 10" for the cost of 2 scheme markers, which anyone whose played Titania can tell you that that is not hard to pay for at all.

[yool1981]

Overall I agree with the statements in the podcast. I would add the young and mature nephilims in the list imho.

I have a doubt about the Spawn Mother though. It is stated as OK on the podcast but I still think that whole package with the Will o' Wisp is too much to pay for as the Gupps are not great minions to begin with if you don't have spare masks (NB crews tend to need the higher masks for crucial actions). But this is only based on my own play experience.

I would like to see her give the Gupps that activate within 6" of her a built in mask.

 

7 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Rot and Rend is vs df, and the claw also means she can use it on a charge. As for removing the gun, that's not a good idea. Then she'd have a min 4 attack at 10" for the cost of 2 scheme markers, which anyone whose played Titania can tell you that that is not hard to pay for at all.

2 Scheme markers & a card probably (Ca6). I don't think this would be a problem, she is a henchman after all. As she is, having the projectile item is really a deterrent.

I have played her with Titania & Lilith but she is just currently not offensive enough and she lacks the durability to justify taking her above some cheaper choices such as the thorn for example.

[Da Git]

I was actually just about to mention the Mature, if Wing Buffet were a (0) and he had 1-2 more wounds, I think he'd be fine. 

For the Young, I think their main problem is simply that Illuminated & Stitched could probably used a slight cuddle.  To give the Young a boost, up their Melee to 2"on both attacks (Rn1 is such a pain), and maybe eat your fill or something...

For Stitched, drop them a wd and drop their dg to 2/4/6 might be a good start.

Illuminated maybe drop Regen, they already have Brillshaper, doubling up on healing is too much.

Aeslin, she's just so confused...Her range 10 attack and Wild Magic suggest she wants to be at range, but she sucks there... She needs a scheme marker to not randomise, which hurts her damage potential, then everything else suggests she wants to be up close.  Either make her dedicated range, maybe drop the range of Rot & Rend to 8 (10's probably to much) without or (so you can't use it on the charge), trade Wild Magic for Armour 1, and make As Leaves on Wind apply a  to all enemy Ca actions that target a model within  6.

Otherwise make her combat-y like I said above...

On 11/17/2017 at 8:07 PM, Da Git said:

Aeslin! 

• To me, she really seems geared to be close up there in the thick of it between Wicked Silence, Leaves on the Wind and the gun icon on Rot and Rend.  The problem as you said is that she's too slow and dies to easily.  I loved the ideas here to build in the suit for Wicked Silence to get free pushes to speed her up and Armour.  She's wearing a bloody tree ffs!  Get rid of Wild Magic to make space for armour.
• I'd also like to see her go up to Wk6, Cg8.
• I'd keep the gun icon on Rot and Rend but up the Claw to Rn2".  This really gets her geared for combat as she can never not randomise, but is really good at getting in there and dropping scheme markers for damage and to use her (0) for neg casts.

Either of those two options would give her the focus she so desperately craves...  The first option is the stronger offensively, but the second had more speed.

[yool1981]

51 minutes ago, Da Git said:

I was actually just about to mention the Mature, if Wing Buffet were a (0) and he had 1-2 more wounds, I think he'd be fine. 

For the Young, I think their main problem is simply that Illuminated & Stitched could probably used a slight cuddle.  To give the Young a boost, up their Melee to 2"on both attacks (Rn1 is such a pain), and maybe eat your fill or something...

For Stitched, drop them a wd and drop their dg to 2/4/6 might be a good start.

Illuminated maybe drop Regen, they already have Brillshaper, doubling up on healing is too much.

I see the matter differently. Cuddling things to make others more appealing should be a last resort for very specific cases. Otherwise, it may drop the competitiveness of the whole faction significantly.

The Illuminated are very strong but on the slowish side in terms of Wk in a faction without too much access to Push overall. I think they are very competitive but not auto-include so cuddling them isn't so important imho.

Stitched together are OK I think. They have their down sides in game and are easily countered in my experience.

Bunraku are in the same price range and I'd take them instead of Young Nephilims any day. I think we will all agree that they are never listed in the "need for cuddle" priorities.

Especially since the Young are far from durable, I think what they lack is mobility. Flight is nice but their Wk and Cg are nothing to write home about. As they are, they do not bring much compared to other combat minions in the same price range.

As to the the Mature, the issue is its direct competition with Nekima imho. It should be differentiated a bit more (and Df4 is very bad also).

[(Keenan)]

I have to side with @yool1981 on Illuminated.  They're good, yes.  But they're meant to be stuck in against an enemy, probably a beater.  And of the 3 NB masters I own and play, I only ever consider taking them with Lynch, the other 2 being Dreamer and Titania.