More Sandeep fun

[Jinn]

Just had an idea that may or may not be viable.

Banasuva uses his (0) to copy a gamin action or ability on Kandara to copy her (0) action to attach a Kandara upgrade. A Performer is killed/sacrificed next to Banasuva and he gains reactivate. He activates and uses Kandara's (0) to discard his gamin upgrade and attach Human Guise.

This is likely not worth it to spend a 5SS model on, although it does free up Sandeep's summoning somewhat and gives the Banasuva reactivate. If you have activation control and a way to get Banasuva into the enemy crew (so maybe a later threat after the performer dies in combat) you could get some value out of the Banasuva using the Mantle of Flames upgrade.

[colron]

I'm not sure banasuva could use Kandara's (0) to attach if the upgrade has "kandara" as a requirement?

 

[Nikodemus]

6 hours ago, colron said:

I'm not sure banasuva could use Kandara's (0) to attach if the upgrade has "kandara" as a requirement?

 

From the FAQ:

Quote

 

38) Some Actions/Abilities allow models to attach Upgrades during the game. Do these Actions/Abilities need to adhere to the restrictions listed on the Upgrade, or can they be attached to any model? 

Upgrade restrictions only affect the hiring process, and have no in game effect, so these Upgrades may be attached to any model. If there are any restrictions they will be noted in the Action or Ability’s description. It is worth noting some such Actions and Abilities bother noting “ignoring restrictions” but this is simply reminder text which was put on when there was space available.

 

https://www.wyrd-games.net/malifaux-faq-errata

[JimO]

Banasuva's (0) ability allows him to gain an ability or action.  He doesn't get to take the gained action for free as part of that action.  If he gains Kandara's (0) action, now he can't take it...because he's already taken his (0) for the activation.  I can't think of a way to readily give him instinctual to allow him to take a second (0).

 

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, JimO said:

Banasuva's (0) ability allows him to gain an ability or action.  He doesn't get to take the gained action for free as part of that action.  If he gains Kandara's (0) action, now he can't take it...because he's already taken his (0) for the activation.  I can't think of a way to readily give him instinctual to allow him to take a second (0).

 

The first post shows a way he can take the second (0) action. (

[JimO]

Just now, Adran said:

The first post shows a way he can take the second (0) action. (

Oh geez, I completely missed that part.  Reading is fundamental!  Carry on. 

[I'm a Teapot!]

I thaught about the new sandeep upgrade to summon banasuva in melee on a tome. Then he can copy the ability to push someone when killed from the errataed windgamin. When you resummon banasuva it sacrifices the old and you can push sandeep or any other team member. You could potentially summon banasuva with a sandeep charge, then activate banasuva, use the 0 to get the push on death ability, hit once with melee expert, use youre 1 ap (slow) to copy sandeeps arcane storm and trigger student of all on sandeep to make a melee action, resummoning banasuva, sacrificing the old one, pushing sandeep 5" and then activate banasuve again, for another melee atk or 2.

[WWHSD]

53 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

I thaught about the new sandeep upgrade to summon banasuva in melee on a tome. Then he can copy the ability to push someone when killed from the errataed windgamin. When you resummon banasuva it sacrifices the old and you can push sandeep or any other team member. You could potentially summon banasuva with a sandeep charge, then activate banasuva, use the 0 to get the push on death ability, hit once with melee expert, use youre 1 ap (slow) to copy sandeeps arcane storm and trigger student of all on sandeep to make a melee action, resummoning banasuva, sacrificing the old one, pushing sandeep 5" and then activate banasuve again, for another melee atk or 2.

That doesn’t work. You can’t summon Banasuva when he’s already on the table. He’s Rare 1.

 

Big Core, pg. 51:

”A Crew may never exceed a model’s Rare limit through summoning. If, for example, and Action would summon a Rare 1 model into a Crew when the Crew already has a copy of that model on the table, the effect that summons the model fails”.

[I'm a Teapot!]

41 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

That doesn’t work. You can’t summon Banasuva when he’s already on the table. He’s Rare 1.

 

Big Core, pg. 51:

”A Crew may never exceed a model’s Rare limit through summoning. If, for example, and Action would summon a Rare 1 model into a Crew when the Crew already has a copy of that model on the table, the effect that summons the model fails”.

Except that the summon actions says sacrifice all other friendly totems in play and doesnt say "Then sacrifice" and effects which happen at the same time can be resolved in an  order chosen by the active player. Therefore you chose to sacrifice the old banasuva and then summon a new one.

[WWHSD]

45 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Except that the summon actions says sacrifice all other friendly totems in play and doesnt say "Then sacrifice" and effects which happen at the same time can be resolved in an  order chosen by the active player. Therefore you chose to sacrifice the old banasuva and then summon a new one.

The “Release the Fire Lord” trigger is a single effect. You do it in the order written.

 

If you can just apply different sentences in an effect in the order you choose, what stops Leveticus from using “Pariah’s Soul” to heal himself and remove conditions whenever he’d like to?

’Pariah’s Soul: When this model is killed or sacrificed, it is not killed or sacrificed. Instead, bury this model. Remove all Conditions and heal all damage on this model’

There’s no “then” or any other words to indicated that the healing and condition removal needs to come after the model gets buried or even after it is killed or sacrificed.

 

”A Moment of Weakness” would be a better upgrade if the first thing the trigger did was to sacrifice all friendly totems. It would still be almost always a worse choice than either of Sandeep’s other limited upgrades but it would be better than it is now.

[I'm a Teapot!]

36 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

The “Release the Fire Lord” trigger is a single effect. You do it in the order written.

 

If you can just apply different sentences in an effect in the order you choose, what stops Leveticus from using “Pariah’s Soul” to heal himself and remove conditions whenever he’d like to?

’Pariah’s Soul: When this model is killed or sacrificed, it is not killed or sacrificed. Instead, bury this model. Remove all Conditions and heal all damage on this model’

There’s no “then” or any other words to indicated that the healing and condition removal needs to come after the model gets buried or even after it is killed or sacrificed.

 

”A Moment of Weakness” would be a better upgrade if the first thing the trigger did was to sacrifice all friendly totems. It would still be almost always a worse choice than either of Sandeep’s other limited upgrades but it would be better than it is now.

"When this model is killed or sacrificed" indicates when the ability is triggered. 

There is not really a difference if you burry first or remove the conditions first. They happen at the same time. Changing the order of the abilities doesnt make you skip one. 

Also wordings with the word "then" would be pointless if every wording would resolve this way. 

[WWHSD]

3 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

"When this model is killed or sacrificed" indicates when the ability is triggered. 

Using your logic for “Release the Fire Lord” on the wording of that “Pariah’s Soul” it would appear that only the ‘not being killed or sacrificed’ and being buried are connected to ‘When this model is killed or sacrificed’. Since there is no “then” in the wording of the ability why can’t you choose to apply ‘Remove all Conditions and heal all damage’ before you the ‘When this model is killed or sacrificed’ bit?

[solkan]

1 hour ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Except that the summon actions says sacrifice all other friendly totems in play and doesnt say "Then sacrifice" and effects which happen at the same time can be resolved in an  order chosen by the active player. Therefore you chose to sacrifice the old banasuva and then summon a new one.

Except for the fact that you're trying to resolve the "when summoning" effect BEFORE the model is summoned.

What you can't avoid is that when Banasura is in play, and you try to summon Banasura again, is that it happens in the following sequence:

• You (try to) summon Banasura
• You would briefly have two Banasura in play
• The summoning effect fails

If the summon effect succeeded, then you would resolve the "when summoning" effects.

--

The reason totems like that have the 'when summoning' clause is to get rid of other totems (like the generic ones) that the master might have been using.  It doesn't let you resummon Banasura while it's in play.