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Von Schill


noahsheck

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Me and a pair of friends have started playing Malifaux.  All of us have played wargames before, so conceptually, learning a new one is not a super long stretch.  I went with Outcasts and bought the Von Schill Box.  I have since found out two things:

1 - The general consensus is that Von Schill is not that strong.

2 - He has stomped all over my opponents.

Here’s my question.  What am I missing?  I’m not that much better than these guys.  Is he just easy to learn, cutting down my learning curve and putting me on a temporary perch until they figure the game out better?

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To answer this question it would be good to know what crews other people in your group have been using. Some masters require a lot of support before they get off the ground and some masters are very complex to start with. Von Schill is more straightforward than some masters considering he has a decent ranged attack. If your opponents bring masters that rely heavily on positioning or scheming then they will take a while to learn.

Malifaux is complex and it is possible that you have picked up on some basics before your opponents have. For example, do you find your opponents to focus on killing models when it may be better for them to try and get VP from schemes involving markers?

If you want to see whether it is you or your crew winning these games then maybe you should try switching crews with your opponent for a game. This can also help you learn your own crew as you can know what you are afraid of when fighting against it.

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I'd like to say something snide about internet wisdom, but sure Von Schill is one of the more straightforward masters in the game with all the good & bad that comes with it.

What size games do you play? How many boxes do you all have? Von Schill has a pretty decent box if you're playing small games with nary more than your respective crew boxes. Compare that to someone like Shenlong, one of the "better" masters of TT has a pretty rubbish box if you're forced to use all of it. This, alongside skill floor of all your masters can play its part.

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It really comes down to Strat/Scheme. VS is great for killing and holding ground. He also tends to take an "elite" crew. More high cost strong models. With non killing strat/schemes and anything that favors more AP & positioning he suffers. That being said, I still love playing him but don't consider him but against more skilled opponents and higher tier masters he quickly looses ground. 

 

 

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He's better than people think, the big thing with him is Started box vs Started box he has one of the best. Not a lot of holes and answers for most things. Forgiving to mistakes because of Armour and not effected by blasts. Marker removal, healing and one of the top 3 snipers in the game. on top of that it's a 7 model box unlike most that are 6 models

 

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Malifaux is a combo game. There are masters that can do awesome tricks/damage if the correct models do the correct actions in the correct way. 

 

Until Broken Promises, Von Schill haven't any real combo, out of the Alyce summoning. But with his new upgrades this has changed a lot. 

 

I've been playing a lot with Von Schill, and I've had always the feeling that he's a little bit underpower, maybe because I've been playing mostly versus Marcus, that is almost inmortal when surrounded by his beast, he buffs better his crew than Von Schill, and hit quite more hard than VS, while having 4x Von Schill cache. The other master I've faced the most is Perdita, that is harder to kill than VS, hits harder both in cc as in ranged, and can also support her crew, everything with double the cache of Von Schill. 

 

But, of course, I've won and I've lost games. Malifaux is enough balanced to rely more in the player's ability. 

 

P.S: Yes, Von Schill is not as good to have cache 1.

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Same here, never played wargames before, he was my first master and I'm still having 63% winrate with him. 

Master himself is unimpressive especially compared to modern guys such as Zipp and Sandeep. However is his crew is a very underrated, every freikorps piece is gold (yes, even Specialist) and IPAYBETTAH makes them even stronger. 

 

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I suppose it's a meaning of point of view and ability with the models. In my case, the Freikorpsmann have been always quite meh. They always die, many few games had put any scheme marker that has been of any use, never had kill anything, the best they had made for me is surviving one or two turns versus more killy models. 

In the other hand, I've played plenty of games with the Specialist, and only achieved  to shoot with him once (with awesome effect), he has never survived, never used any of his specials things, and I never felt that he has had any real impact in my crews. 

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Freikorpsmann have potential I think, just cause they can (sometimes) do respectable damage do to reference the field guide and the engineers bonus ram, which brings them up to like min 4 or something.  I like their 12in gun and unimpeded.  

Specialist, however, is not worth the cost or effort to try and make him useful.  He seems like a one trick pony at best.  I'm hoping he gets buffed in the Jan. errata. I had a whole big discussion post on here about potential ways to change him, with tons of good ideas.

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2 hours ago, Zebo said:

I suppose it's a meaning of point of view and ability with the models. In my case, the Freikorpsmann have been always quite meh. They always die, many few games had put any scheme marker that has been of any use, never had kill anything, the best they had made for me is surviving one or two turns versus more killy models. 

In the other hand, I've played plenty of games with the Specialist, and only achieved  to shoot with him once (with awesome effect), he has never survived, never used any of his specials things, and I never felt that he has had any real impact in my crews. 

I agree f-men are not top-tier minions, but to be honest we dont have much options as outcasts. 

They are pretty good at being anti-charge meatshield (against vics for example). Guys are also good at locking ranged models and holding objectives. 

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So: we have been playing 50 ss games.  I have basically been using the starter box plus Hannah and the Strong Arm Suit (I’ve been using the librarian, but I bought all the first stuff at once and I can’t remember whether she came with the starter box).  I have begun to experiment recently with Lazarus and Hans.  I also just bought a couple of new pieces and Tara, so soon I will be able to break out a new master.

One of my opponents bought in pretty big on Ten Thunders.  He has a significant number of models, but he’s been using Shen Long.  He has mastered the trick of pushing a model (usually that ghostly suit of armor) into position, souping it up, and sending it to kill the bejesus out of something.  

The third of us played Guild in 1st edition.  He has a pretty broad selection of models.  He is VERY focused on killing, often to his detriment.

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I think @beergod may be on to something with the ‘strongest base box’ along with your skill. When I’m my first meta was full of newbies, one player switched from Seamus (another strong base box) to Von Schill, and started beating me on a regular basis instead of losing or tying. I think my McCabe never did get a win against VS.

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Von Schill does have a pretty strong starting box, compared to a lot of the other ones.  He starts getting out classed once more competitive lists/models get brought onto the table.  I for one absolutely love him, he was my first master, I just can't find a list with him that wins with anything near consistency.  His main problem as you get deeper into the game is the Freikorp models are so costly, you only begin play with 7ish models, which is brutal under GG17, where summoners and spam lists are king.  I'm optimistic under GG18 I'll be able to return to my roots with the more elite crews.

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Agreed.  I personally find Nythera Aftermath more useful, but Oath of theFreikorps can be good for more cheesy effect.  I think its a choice of one or the other.  My games were I bring both are generally the ones I do worse with.

GG18 seems like its moving away from the need of 10+ models, so the more elite crews, like VS's could be more viable. 

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14 hours ago, Davos said:

 

 

14 hours ago, Davos said:

Agreed.  I personally find Nythera Aftermath more useful, but Oath of theFreikorps can be good for more cheesy effect.  I think its a choice of one or the other.  My games were I bring both are generally the ones I do worse with.

GG18 seems like its moving away from the need of 10+ models, so the more elite crews, like VS's could be more viable. 

I've had similar experience - taking both puts a weird two-way pull on VS's AP.

As for GG2018 I hope you're right - I can't wait to play Von Schill other than just for fun.

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von Schill's new upgrades make him both much more powerful and much more adaptable to a range of schemes and strategies.  

before this, Schill was, I would argue, a master that a lot of people misplayed.  I'd argue that 'internet wisdom' generally had him pegged as the wrong type of master, so people play him wrong.  There also hasn't been a lot of discussion about his performance since the new upgrades.

Lacking tricks meant that he wasn't particularly good at many schemes and his Friekorps models generally aren't the hardest hitters either.  

But with a bunch of new players there are a bunch of other big variables.  At this stage you might just be the better player.  Resource management, overall strategy, turn-by-turn and activation-by-activation tactics, and general game insight - all these are important as well.  

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I played Schill yesterday for the first time. I was glad to do it because it justifies having the models after I bought them. He however, will firmly sit in my box from now on. His only interesting upgrade was the one that allowed for him to shoot and pull. However, the friekorp models he pulled them into weren't impressive enough to really deal with the models he pulled and his constant min 1 or 2 damage didn't feel competitive for a frontline master. The entire game I thought, man Levi or the Viks would have done all of this without so much set up and with better models in my crew. 

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14 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

I played Schill yesterday for the first time. I was glad to do it because it justifies having the models after I bought them. He however, will firmly sit in my box from now on. His only interesting upgrade was the one that allowed for him to shoot and pull. However, the friekorp models he pulled them into weren't impressive enough to really deal with the models he pulled and his constant min 1 or 2 damage didn't feel competitive for a frontline master. The entire game I thought, man Levi or the Viks would have done all of this without so much set up and with better models in my crew. 

Oath of the Friekorps combined with that other new one.  Charge into a group and you can attack any model, not the one you're targeting.  Good way of throwing 2-3 models away from a Stash marker or some such, or away from where they need to drop scheme markers.  Or from one table quarter onto the mid-line.  etc etc. 

Or, go into one.  Charge, place.  Now you have :+fate if you have given yourself oathkeeper.  Trigger shot, reposition.  Repeat.  up to 6 shots, plus (0) finish the cur, if applicable. 

 

Or you can even throw enemy models back behind your lines for headhunter.  It's not just that Schill can now deliver a lot of hurt himself, but that it's suitable for a lot of schemes.  And he'll still take a bit of work to bring down.  

Sounds like you weren't really using the new upgrades most effectively. 

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I think Anna might now have a place in a Schill crew.  With her anti- enemy place/push aura, she protects a lot of your squishier models, and her forced push duels can proc VS's ability as well.  I'm still working out the list exactly but I'm optimistic

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If you are all newish Malifaux players that have played other miniatures games it's possible that you might not be using enough terrain. Von Schill's crew isn't the shootiest crew in the game but if you are facing a melee heavy crew on a fairly open board they are going to seem stronger than they would be on a board with more terrain that breaks up sight lines.

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13 hours ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

Oath of the Friekorps combined with that other new one.  Charge into a group and you can attack any model, not the one you're targeting.  Good way of throwing 2-3 models away from a Stash marker or some such, or away from where they need to drop scheme markers.  Or from one table quarter onto the mid-line.  etc etc. 

Or, go into one.  Charge, place.  Now you have :+fate if you have given yourself oathkeeper.  Trigger shot, reposition.  Repeat.  up to 6 shots, plus (0) finish the cur, if applicable. 

 

Or you can even throw enemy models back behind your lines for headhunter.  It's not just that Schill can now deliver a lot of hurt himself, but that it's suitable for a lot of schemes.  And he'll still take a bit of work to bring down.  

Sounds like you weren't really using the new upgrades most effectively. 

After the first game I just can't see a reason for the Oathkeeper one. There's just not very many situations where effectively changing out a master ap for a minion/enforcer AP is worthwhile. I'd rather just not hire him out in Friekorp theme and use the other actual good models in Outcasts. but if I do that, might as well play another master becuase they offer better things. Right now his best options are that he can reposition an enemy model, more than likely at hte expense of leaving himself open to counter attack. 

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6 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

After the first game I just can't see a reason for the Oathkeeper one. There's just not very many situations where effectively changing out a master ap for a minion/enforcer AP is worthwhile. 

Maybe it's just because I'm a newbie, largely playing against other newbies... but I've loved this upgrade. Being able to swap out one of VS's AP and give it to e.g. Lazarus or the Strongarm Suit has seemed to be incredibly powerful. Especially in the first turn of the game when I can walk and give it to both of them for a future turn. Walk + Rapid Fire on Lazarus or Walk + Charge on SS has been amazing.

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