Pandora - Woe Is Me

[Mutter]

There has been some good discussion about summoning Pandora in this thread, which is really about something else entirely, so I thought it might be worthwhile to split off the discussion:

Xaos:

I've tested it yesterday, and managed to summon single Sorrow, which ain't bad, as I'd paid 2 pts and 1+0 actions for 5 pts model already where I needed him. Some more practice, and this upgrade may give more than the Box. Any idea what else she should take (any other upgrades)?

I'm a Teapot!:

I always play summon pandora with cry for me and depression.

With good positioning and lilithu/doppel luring things you can discard a mask, summon 2 times and then drop the project emotions with the mask trigger on them. thats a good package of summoning and also doing damage. Of course, if you have the stones to spare keep the (0) for a double incite, which does 3 dmg each. It's still worth having depression on her, since it gives the newly summoned sorrows a (1)action targeting wp and that is basicly damage multiplication cause its 3 dmg each aswell. And since moodswing can controll enemy activations its easy to keep the sorrows alive so they can actually activate this ability. 

Also, with the pitty condition from cry for me, enemies just drop like flies and the poltergeist keeps popping out all the time. Who doesnt love his opponent on double negatives to wp when playing pandy with sorrows =)

Mutter:

What are good models to get conditions on the enemy to summon Sorrows off them, then?

I guess Field Reporters are good, since their attacks hand out a condition on three of four triggers. Iggy is also nice, because of Incite and his two ways to hand out burning. All woes with Depression, to hand out Melancholy.

Will O'The Wisp with The Whisp's Call, I guess. They are nice for the Poltergeist, anyway.

Anything else would lend itself well to that kind of Pandora list?

le_sphinx:

Mr. Tannen. This was mentioned in recent thread "Tannen uses". Also his aura can work very well with Pandora.

Other model for condition applying can be Insidious Madness with it "I can hear them".

Poltergeist can give slow with his attacks or paranormal marker. Primordial Magic can give "insignificant". 

 

[Mutter]

I'm worried that such a list would be fairly light on 'heavy-weights'. Maybe Mr. Graves or Barbaros?

Also, start with the Poltergeist or not? Trying to summon it in the game saves stones, but I feel the advantage it can give is too big to leave it out.

Maybe something like this?

Pandora
    Woe is Me, 2SS
    Cry for Me, 2SS
    Depression, 1SS
Poltergeist, 5SS
Barbaros, 10SS
    A Thousand Faces, 1SS
Mr. Graves, 8SS
    A Thousand Faces, 1SS
Iggy, 5SS
Field Reporter, 4SS
Field Reporter, 4SS
Will O' the Wisp, 3SS

Available Soulstones: 50
Total: 46
Pool: 7

Alternatively, exchanging Barbaros and some cache for any two of Doppelganger/Tannen/Lilitu?

[le_sphinx]

Poltergeist can be easily summoned by killing someone by "misery". This is a really nice passive summoning option of "woe is me". I think it is better to spend 5 ss for something else.

In my opinion the core of your list is Pandora, Barbaros (his challenge pulse should work well here), Iggy and one reporter. Other modelss can be left or swapped depending on schemes.

If there are many killy schemes, two duets can be cosidered as well: Teddy+Kade and The Tooth+Rougarou. Both are hitting Df, but also have nice options of various Wp duels. Insidious Madnesses are fast and good scheme runners. Also they can make harder to cheat Wp duels for opponent and apply conditions (mentioned before).

Doppel., Tannen and Lilitu are strong options either. I really like Lilitu's range. It works well for applying some scheme conditons such as "marked for death".

 

[Mutter]

46 minutes ago, le_sphinx said:

Poltergeist can be easily summoned by killing someone by "misery". This is a really nice passive summoning option of "woe is me". I think it is better to spend 5 ss for something else.

Yes, but it is much easier to kill something with Misery if the Poltergeist happens to be around.

And the Poltergeist is an incorporeal minion, too. So he's pulling his weight in the scheme department as well, if you want him to.

[I'm a Teapot!]

You just have to pick the right target to start the summoning avalanche. Also I consider Lilithe and maybe a doppleganger to be an essential threat because luring a weak model in to get a few sorrows and a poltergeist really gets the engine going. For the rest of the crew I like to take models who can do the jobs needed for the strategy and schemes but also have passive synergies with pandora. The autumn knights are a good example: One of them can be really nice because the passive wp check in engagment can be huge in a pandora crew because it happens out of activation. Again, with lilithu and proper positioning this can be a good threat. 

In game which focus on the center of the board (Extraction, guard the stash,...) I love taking the emissary with summoning pandora, since his ability to copy the poltergeist's aura can ruin the opponents day pretty hard. Also I have recently started to include models with claw actions targeting wp in my crew (Candy, Aeslin - protects summoned sorrows and the poltergeist, Wisps) and played around vasilisa a bit. Obey can be a powerfull tool in a pandora crew. 

I had this discussion in the rules forum already but here is the summary:

When engaged with multiple enemies, disengaging strikes happen one after another and are considered an attack with an opposed duel as result. Claw attack disengaging strikes targeting wp therefore result in wp duels and proc misery if won by the model making the disengaging strike. 

Let's say vasilisa obeys someone engaged with pandora and candy. Ca7 (stone for the mask, its worth it) vs wp. If vasilisa wins the obey duel, misery procs 1 time (Let's pretend no sorrows are on the board and no poltergeist). Then she can make the model try to walk out of engagement of both candy and pandora. Since vasilisa is considered as the controller of the obeyed model, she gets to flip and cheat for the model trying to run and you also get to controll the flips and cheats of candy and pandora. So you can make the obeyed model lose both duels and take 2 more damage from misery. Since it wasnt an attack action, you can obey the model again and repeat it. So 2 ap for 6 misery dmg from only pandoras misery.

Now add 2 sorrows and a poltergeist, because this is what you at least have around with woe is me. Suddenly you have 18 misery damage while the poltergeist makes those 18 points of damage even more likely because the enemy will be on negatives to wp duels. 

Possible other things to do with vasilisa in a pandora crew: 

- Obey people to fail a terror duel on let's say a teddy.

- Obey people to take an interact action while being in pandora's 8" aura from fugue state and fail the 15 wp duel on purpose.

- Obey people and fail barbaros challenge aura on purpose

- Let the emissary copy her 4" -1wp aura

Dont underestimate the overhated vasilisa. 

 

Bad Juju can be huge fun in a swamp fiend based pandora crew. 

When I thaught about models for pandora I looked at his card and thaught: Damn these are some nice wp duels. Wisps and Adzes are amazing with pandora. They all have a 10" wp attack that provides a semi lure and a condition to summon of. Wisps can copy adzes 2 tactical action to force wp duels that deal min3 dmg and with the bad juju list you can throw in a whisp early in the game and even benefit from their aura until the enemy kills it and bad juju comes out of the swamp to punish whoever killed the whisp. 

I've run a list with bad juju, 3 whisps 3 adzes and iggy and it was pretty good. 

Also serena bowman is a huge deal for neverborn and pandora, she is a trick factory on her own. From the shadows lilithu lures pandora and widow weaver up the board and provides web markers and setup for the extraction fight coming in later turns. From the shadows teddies, burry tricks with anna lovelace, from the shadows whisps and from the shadows adzes together....there are so many things to explore with wave 5.

 

 

[Treehouse]

How about:

Pandora: Woe, Depression, Fugue, +3 ss (8) or Wings plus 4 ss

Primordial Magic  (2)

Emissary with Conflux of Sorrow (10)

Tannen  (6)

Doppgaenger (7)  

Graves, 1kFaces (9) 

Iggy (5)  

Will o the Wisp (3) 

Pandora can use Depr. to avoid being suit reliant for summoning. Primordial Magic for.activation and two rounds of Rush, so it is okay if it's sacrificed later for fhe poltergeist. Emissary and iggy can incite instead of pandora. Emissary can add to summoning (also on masks and unreliable, but that's what depression, rush and tannen are for). also, emissary can use cooler to great effect, or misery/martyr/incorporeal. Graves for pushes and as a beater. Will o the wisp can potentially copy a summoned poltergeist's (2). 

 

all in all, the crew might lack killing power, though.

[Mutter]

11 hours ago, Treehouse said:

all in all, the crew might lack killing power, though.

Yeah, this is what I'm concerned about with many lists I built, too.

[I'm a Teapot!]

21 hours ago, Treehouse said:

How about:

Pandora: Woe, Depression, Fugue, +3 ss (8) or Wings plus 4 ss

Primordial Magic  (2)

Emissary with Conflux of Sorrow (10)

Tannen  (6)

Doppgaenger (7)  

Graves, 1kFaces (9) 

Iggy (5)  

Will o the Wisp (3) 

Pandora can use Depr. to avoid being suit reliant for summoning. Primordial Magic for.activation and two rounds of Rush, so it is okay if it's sacrificed later for fhe poltergeist. Emissary and iggy can incite instead of pandora. Emissary can add to summoning (also on masks and unreliable, but that's what depression, rush and tannen are for). also, emissary can use cooler to great effect, or misery/martyr/incorporeal. Graves for pushes and as a beater. Will o the wisp can potentially copy a summoned poltergeist's (2). 

 

all in all, the crew might lack killing power, though.

I'd leave the primordial at home, find another stone and add another whisp. Also an Adze instead of tannen maybe.

[feagaur]

I've played summoning Pandora a few times and have found the following to be quite good.

Pandora with Woe is me, Fugue State and Rile them up (6ss) with 6ss pool.

Barbaros with Malifaux Provides (11SS)

Then either Candy or Aeslin (depending on schemes) usually with a 1SS upgrade (10ss)

Doppleganger (7ss)

Insidious Madness (5ss)

Field Reporter (4ss)

Field Reporter (4ss)

 

Rile them up is great for using her 0 to push into range of summoning whilst giving someone a condition then summoning twice (if possible) then dropping a card to take as a (1) ap and pushing away from danger.

The field reporters are fab at putting conditions on models ready and for being cheap speed bumps.

Barbaros and doppleganger do their usual things and then Aeslin if there are any marker based schemes and Candy if not.

 

I've usually averaged about 4 sorrows summoned in a game and at least 1 poltergeist.

I've tried it  having a couple of sorrows to start with and thats worked quite well too. I've also found summoning Dora works great with schemes that give conditions (marked for death, tail em etc). Especially Marked for Death.

 

[Argentbadger]

I've quite enjoyed using the Woe Is Me upgrade on Pandora.  I've generally found the use of Pandora herself to be roughly similar to when she's carrying The Box Opens in that I throw her as soon as possible into the biggest clump of enemies that I can find and then hit Inflict as often as possible.  I have only tended to summon one or two Sorrows per game and certainly not more than 1 per Pandora activation.  Of course, getting more models is good, but it costs a decent card (and maybe a Soulstone) and also one of Pandora's precious AP that could be spent on draining more cards with Inflict.  For me, a single additional Misery aura from one Sorrow has been sufficient.  The Poltergeist is pleasingly easy to summon and I think I've almost always been able to have it on the table by turn 2.

Sample crew: Pandora, (Woe Is Me, Fears Given Form), Nekima (One Thousand Faces), Barbaros (One Thousand Faces), Mr Graves, 2 Field Reporters, Insidious Madness

I used this against the mighty Greg P in a tournament a few weeks ago and was pleased with the effectiveness (battle report here).  Probably worth noting that Anna Lovelace would have been a big problem for me but Greg didn't specifically expect Pandora so didn't counter-pick her.  I am not convinced that the Insidious Madness is of huge value in the crew; of course it remains an excellent scheme runner but it wants to be in a different part of the board to Pandora so the nice Willpower shenanigans it should enable don't actually happen in practice.

Field Reporters were an interesting pick and I'll admit that I have only been taking them because I can.  They are first rate scheme runners but I don't think that they are necessarily any better than Terror Tots or Gupps for the same role.  I had thought that the conditions that they put out and the Willpower attacks would synergise well with Pandora but in practice they have other jobs (i.e. put down scheme markers etc) and are often not near to Pandora anyway.  Especially in strategies where the other crew want to be somewhere particular, I like to fire Pandora up hard enough to stop the other crew from even reaching the Stash markers (or whatever we're trying to get to).

Feagaur - any particular reason why Barbaros, Aeslin or Candy aren't just starting with One Thousand Faces?

Mutter - I feel like with that crew you're relying on Pandora (and Misery in general) to do a lot of lifting.  Apart from Mr Graves you don't really have anything to just punch annoying things that you want to go away.  Could you consider dropping some of the cool tech pieces (Mr Tannen, Iggy, the Wisp) for something fightier, like a Teddy perhaps?

[Xaos]

If you give Pandora Depression, summoning Sorrows will be much easier

[Mutter]

1 hour ago, Argentbadger said:

Could you consider dropping some of the cool tech pieces (Mr Tannen, Iggy, the Wisp) for something fightier, like a Teddy perhaps?

You're probably referring to the list Treehouse posted?

But yeah, I voiced similar concerns, and I think it's easy to 'overdo' the whole woe-shenanigans. It'll have to be a fine balance ...

[feagaur]

5 hours ago, Argentbadger said:

 

Feagaur - any particular reason why Barbaros, Aeslin or Candy aren't just starting with One Thousand Faces?

 

Personal choice mostly. I want the upgrades I put on a model to do a job. If I'm not sure why I'm adding an upgrade or just putting it on for the sake of having one there then I'd be looking to spend the stones elsewhere. Plus theres a few upgrades that need to kick in as a reaction or at the start of the turn which means I can't drop thousand faces and then use it.

[Oshova]

On 10/11/2017 at 2:30 PM, I'm a Teapot! said:

Then she can make the model try to walk out of engagement of both candy and pandora. Since vasilisa is considered as the controller of the obeyed model, she gets to flip and cheat for the model trying to run and you also get to controll the flips and cheats of candy and pandora. So you can make the obeyed model lose both duels and take 2 more damage from misery. Since it wasnt an attack action, you can obey the model again and repeat it. So 2 ap for 6 misery dmg from only pandoras misery.

My understanding was that once you failed a disengage you stopped trying to get away. So you would only be able to fail the first one, and not any others. It's still an extra Wp duel to fail, but I'm not sure it stacks up the way you think it does.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, because that seems like a pretty decent trick.

[Philosfr]

I've also been trying Summoning Pandora lately. The biggest issue I've run into is lack of killing ability if Pandora dies. Sorrows are still as fragile as a porcelain tea cup dropped from the empire states building, so counting on them to do Misery damage after Pandora's demise has failed. I've always been a fan of paralyzing with Pandora and then letting the rest of my crew do scheming and killing, and I think I need to make Summoning Pandora crews a little similar.

One thing to keep in mind is enemy conditions count! Play against someone giving out Fast, Defensive, Focus, and you don't need to apply that many conditions yourself. Especially since the opponent won't want to end Fast on their model because you summon a Sorrow off from it, so you can use it multiple times. 

I've had good luck with the crew, but I have spent too many resources on the conditions, which haven't been the concern.

[I'm a Teapot!]

17 hours ago, Oshova said:

My understanding was that once you failed a disengage you stopped trying to get away. So you would only be able to fail the first one, and not any others. It's still an extra Wp duel to fail, but I'm not sure it stacks up the way you think it does.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, because that seems like a pretty decent trick.

I think it works, because you could always try to leave one of their engagement zones if the model fails, but stay in the engagement zone of the model that won a disengaging strike vs you. 

Therefore I think it is legal for the owner of the Models who make the disengaging strike, to actually make the duels for all models and not stop after the first fail.

I'm looking for models being able to make disengaging strikes vs wp and being hireable for neverborn.

So far I got those:

- Pandora

- Poltergeist

- Candy

- Aeslin

- Whisps

- Bishop

Do you know some more?

 

 

 

[Oshova]

28 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

I think it works, because you could always try to leave one of their engagement zones if the model fails, but stay in the engagement zone of the model that won a disengaging strike vs you. 

Quote

To resolve a disengaging strike, the enemy models that are engaged with the moving model may choose to take a free Attack Action with any one Close (y) Attack which the disengaging model is within range of. If the Attack hits, the disengaging model may not perform the Walk Action, although it must still spend the required AP. A disengaging strike deals no damage, has no other effect, and may not declare any Triggers.

So you do get to make all of the disengaging strikes, even if the disengaging model fails the first one! If the disengaging model fails any of the duels, then it doesn't get to move at all, but you get to keep making disengaging strikes for any other models that are able to do so.

Other models would include Insidious Madness and Changling (From copying an attack).

 

[I'm a Teapot!]

45 minutes ago, Oshova said:

So you do get to make all of the disengaging strikes, even if the disengaging model fails the first one! If the disengaging model fails any of the duels, then it doesn't get to move at all, but you get to keep making disengaging strikes for any other models that are able to do so.

Other models would include Insidious Madness and Changling (From copying an attack).

 

Ah, nice! totally forgot about them. Gonna try to include them into my pandora vasilisa lists now.