Is it because of Lady Justice?

[Rufess]

Lady Justice is my first master so I have spent much more time to theorycraft on her than other master. When looking at those good stuffs we have in Guild with "non-master" restriction, I always think how awesome if they could work with the Lady. Then I just realized, is Lady Justice the main reason of the restriction?

Lady Justice struggle alot how to get into melee before wave 5, and it is a kind of balance to her monster-like melee power just like another melee master. However if Mounted Guard was able to Cavalry Charge with Lady Justice, she suddently had 13" increased in her threat range which bring her to the level of Vik (with condition though).

And if a master could bring debt and affected by Enchant Weapon from Queller, despite not as scary as Sonnia, Lady Justice could slash 3 times with min damage of 5. She could even go up to 6 attacks with mini damage of 4 with Vendetta and some stone, which is 24 damage may not be reduced.

With Lead Line Coat, thought not as impressive as previous examples, Lady Justice could have more capacity in duration and attrition game given her 14 wounds, self-healing and the Brutal Effigy.

If it is true that Lady Justice was the reason of the "non-master" restriction, then I would like to see they tune down the power level a bit to remove the restriction in 2.5E or 3E. I really want to see the sceen that Lady Justice mounts the horse and charge with Mounted Guard.

[Ludvig]

The emissary has a specific rule enabling it to bury Justice as the only master so she can pop up basically anywhere you want and that came in wave 3. We have a bunch of pushes that can target any friendly model. 

Debt is definitely non-master because Sonnia would just break the game with that kind of power. Justice is a lot less of a concern. The queller buff would also be downright stupid if allowed on more or less any master. LLC would probably be good on several masters, McMourning would be a real pain too since he heals back a lot faster than Justice and Sonnia/Perdita would lose their glass-cannon nature. It might have to do with the effigy already being intended to heal masters so they knew we would get tons of healing, that used to be kind of a defining point for guild in m1.5 I believe.

Have you checked the other factions? I'm pretty sure they have lots of stuff with the non-master clause as well. I know I've reacted myself about outcasts being allowed to give their master hard to kill while we aren't allowed to give them armour which I always found strange. TT being allowed recalled training on masters with very potent blasts also has me confused. 

Basically if Justice doing irreducable damage was such a problem I don't see why Viks were allowed to do min damage 5 without any possibility to reduce since book 1 while also being allowed to slingshot anywhere in several ways.

[FinalForm]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Basically if Justice doing irreducable damage was such a problem I don't see why Viks were allowed to do min damage 5 without any possibility to reduce since book 1 while also being allowed to slingshot anywhere in several ways.

Viktoria of blood is 7hp def 6(7) wp5 model with 1 ss by default.
LJ is 14hp 5(7)def 7(9)wp with 4 ss by default.
You can see the difference. LJ is far, far better protected and can outsustain even toughest beatsticks like Howard/Nekima/Peacekeeper, while Viktoria can not.
 

[Ludvig]

The soaring dragon + glimpse Vik trick is pretty tricky to defend against. Either you can attack buried models or you are unlikely to ever get to attack her. Even with their previous normal playstyle they could strike pretty unopposed because of the huge threat range so unless you had a lot of models capable of killing one of them in a single activation you were in a bad spot since they reliably took out the biggest counter to them. 

Apart from that the Viks would actually have 6 ap and 14 wounds since you get both sisters for the same price as LJ. It's tricky to do a straight up comparison since they work in such radically different ways. There is also subtle stuff like slingshotting in Henchvik carries a lot less risk than having LJ camped out in the middle of their crew when assassinate is in the pool and Henchvik can do hunting party which LJ almost hinders. Viks are more likely do get a quick murder and associated schemes done because the most expensive model will always have survivability abilities with that,scheme in the pool.

I get how it's sane to not have LJ ignore defenses but I'm pretty sure she wouldn't be the worst offender in guild. And since she's already so survivable granting her armour doesn't seem like a big deal, the badge would probably still outshine it since red joker fishing is such a huge threat to her.

[4thstringer]

I agree that Sonnia is much more the reason for most of those limits.   No one wants to face an armor ignoring Sonnia or a +1 damage sonnia.   

[trikk]

6 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Debt is definitely non-master because Sonnia would just break the game with that kind of power.

Apparently Storm Misaki with Recalled Training disagrees with you.

[Ludvig]

7 minutes ago, trikk said:

Apparently Storm Misaki disagrees with you.

I think TT masters having access to recalled training was bullshit even before that particular interaction. Just using Shenlongs blasts could get really filthy and several of them have scary damage tracks with that bonus. The fact that it also gives you basically defensive and the wp buff of promises makes the model really hard to punish for being overextended as well.

[4thstringer]

We all know tt is the favored faction. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Would that was only tongue in cheek.

[Nikodemus]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

and several of them have scary damage tracks with that bonus.

Majority have weak dmg 1 or 2.  Most don't get +1 dmg trigger to stone/flip for either. It's a great upgrade but I can't say I feel filthy when I take it for my master.

___

I do agree that TT has some toys it could do without. But RT on masters isn't one.

[trikk]

20 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

Majority have weak dmg 1 or 2.  Most don't get +1 dmg trigger to stone/flip for either. It's a great upgrade but I can't say I feel filthy when I take it for my master.

___

I do agree that TT has some toys it could do without. But RT on masters isn't one.

I do agree because Misaki got the built-in trigger to just hit severes which IMHO is super dumb.

[Nikodemus]

At the moment I'm leaning towards Storm upgrade itself being dumb, so whether or not RT gets combo'd in is secondary. I'm certainly willing to entertain the thought that Storm+RT is too much, but I've still got some games to play before I get there.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

Majority have weak dmg 1 or 2.  Most don't get +1 dmg trigger to stone/flip for either. It's a great upgrade but I can't say I feel filthy when I take it for my master.

___

I do agree that TT has some toys it could do without. But RT on masters isn't one.

I believe TT can already gain fast with their excellent support pieces so assming they were pushed into a position where they can attack RT is the equivalent of four ap spent on focus as well as an ap and card on defensive stance and the bonus to wp which is hard to quantify since it's not available to everyone. That's a pretty decent investment even if it is an upgrade slot and only one turn.

Perdita has a 2/4/5 damage track and can ignore armour which apparently makes her one of the games absolute beasts i the damage department. Mei Feng also has a 2/4/5 damage track and can ignore armour and htw if she or Kang has hard worker. Yet people say Mei isn't a damage dealer at all which I find strange. If she railwalks she can trigger an awful lot of attacks with focus on them from a pretty safe starting point. She doesn't have crit but she does trigger more attacks.

[skoatz]

5 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

We all know tt is the favored faction. 

5 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Would that was only tongue in cheek.

The Storm looks like it's going to be a problem.  I'll agree there.  But before Wave 5, what major tournaments in the US were TT winning?  In the past year, the only major tournament that a TT player won was Gencon (that I'm aware of.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please).  Derrek Chu won with Mei Feng, and I don't believe he used any of her new Wave 5 upgrades.  Duncan Bilz played TT for most of this year, but he hasn't placed first at any major tournament this year.  I think he placed third at a couple events but that's it.

TT has some strong stuff, but favored faction?  I don't know about that.

[4thstringer]

11 minutes ago, skoatz said:

The Storm looks like it's going to be a problem.  I'll agree there.  But before Wave 5, what major tournaments in the US were TT winning?  In the past year, the only major tournament that a TT player won was Gencon (that I'm aware of.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please).  Derrek Chu won with Mei Feng, and I don't believe he used any of her new Wave 5 upgrades.  Duncan Bilz played TT for most of this year, but he hasn't placed first at any major tournament.  I think he placed third at a couple events but that's it.

TT has some strong stuff, but favored faction?  I don't know about that.

So besides gen con (which was both sides in the finals tt), Im pretty sure Duncan was also in the finals for Nova.  I'm not sure what tournaments are considered major tournaments though.   I guess adepticon, captaincon, Califaux and LVO? 

[skoatz]

17 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

So besides gen con (which was both sides in the finals tt), Im pretty sure Duncan was also in the finals for Nova.  I'm not sure what tournaments are considered major tournaments though.   I guess adepticon, captaincon, Califaux and LVO? 

I just looked again at the US rankings for any tournament with 20+ people since Jan 2017:

• Live Free or Die Cheating - No TT top 3
• Bremaster Classic - Derrek Chu 1st place
• Nova Open - No TT top 3 (Although Duncan did make it to the top table in the last round, but Duncan won Nova Open the year before as Guild)
• GenCon - Derrek Chu 1st place
• Capitol City Meltdown - No TT Top 3
• Califaux Master (second day of the Califaux Masters tournament) - TT player was in 8th overall
• Field of Dreams - No TT player in top 10
• Adepticon - Duncan in 3rd
• Midgard Malifaux
• CaptainCon Day 1 (I can't find Day 2) - No TT in top 3

I can't find Las Vegas Open 2017 results, but either way, you're seeing Derrek Chu getting 1st twice and Duncan placing high who also placed as high or higher as Guild.

The top TT player in the UK placed 1st in one 14 man tournament.

[4thstringer]

4 minutes ago, skoatz said:

I just looked again at the US rankings for any tournament with 20+ people:

• Live Free or Die Cheating - No TT top 3
• Bremaster Classic - Derrek Chu 1st place
• Nova Open - No TT top 3 (Although Duncan did make it to the top table in the last round, but Duncan won Nova Open the year before as Guild)
• GenCon - Derrek Chu 1st place
• Capitol City Meltdown - No TT Top 3
• Califaux Master (second day of the Califaux Masters tournament) - TT player was in 8th overall
• Field of Dreams - No TT player in top 10
• Adepticon - Duncan in 3rd
• Midgard Malifaux
• CaptainCon Day 1 (I can't find Day 2) - No TT in top 3

I can't find Las Vegas Open 2017 results, but either way, you're seeing Derrek Chu getting 1st twice and Duncan placing high who also placed as high or higher as Guild.

The top TT player in the UK placed 1st in one 14 man tournament.

Comparing guild at the same time: I'll say highest finisher for each faction tt first/ guild second

• Live Free or Die Cheating - 10/7
• Bremaster Classic - 1/7
• Nova Open - No TT top 3 (Although Duncan did make it to the top table in the last round, but Duncan won Nova Open the year before as Guild) 5/24
• GenCon - Derrek Chu 1st place 1/??
• Capitol City Meltdown -5/12
• Califaux Master (second day of the Califaux Masters tournament) - TT player was in 8th overall/2nd I think
• Field of Dreams - No TT player in top 10-11/17
• Adepticon - Duncan in 3rd-3/16
• Midgard Malifaux 13/7
• CaptainCon Day 1 (I can't find Day 2) - No TT in top 5-5/8

 

So we see that pre wave 5, tt was clearly dominating guild.   My guess (though I didn't collect this data) is arcanists are the only faction which consistently did better than tt.  But despite this they got significant upgrades in wave 5.

Though honestly before this,   I only meant that in the fiction they have plot armor of the highest caliber.

[skoatz]

31 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Comparing guild at the same time: I'll say highest finisher for each faction tt first/ guild second

• Live Free or Die Cheating - 10/7
• Bremaster Classic - 1/7
• Nova Open - No TT top 3 (Although Duncan did make it to the top table in the last round, but Duncan won Nova Open the year before as Guild) 5/24
• GenCon - Derrek Chu 1st place 1/??
• Capitol City Meltdown -5/12
• Califaux Master (second day of the Califaux Masters tournament) - TT player was in 8th overall/2nd I think
• Field of Dreams - No TT player in top 10-11/17
• Adepticon - Duncan in 3rd-3/16
• Midgard Malifaux 13/7
• CaptainCon Day 1 (I can't find Day 2) - No TT in top 5-5/8

 

So we see that pre wave 5, tt was clearly dominating guild.   My guess (though I didn't collect this data) is arcanists are the only faction which consistently did better than tt.  But despite this they got significant upgrades in wave 5.

Though honestly before this,   I only meant that in the fiction they have plot armor of the highest caliber.

That's fair, I can't speak to the fiction (I've only read some of it).  And I agree that TT is placing higher than guild pre-wave 5 so there's something to be said for that.

For Arcanists, it's tough to say.  It's the most popular faction in terms of the number of players.  That affects the average that Malifaux rankings for each faction.  Gremlins have a higher average score than Ten Thunders with Neverborn just under TT.  I want to see the faction breakdown for top 5 places since Jan 2017.  Unfortunately I can't export the USA Malifaux Rankings raw data.  So one of these days I'm going to have to copy it out by hand.

And again, I wouldn't say TT is underpowered.  TT is definitely on the stronger end of the spectrum (not factoring in Misaki's new upgrade).  I know this isn't what you meant originally, I just don't see how they're the favored faction in terms of power level.

[4thstringer]

I guess I would say gremlins power seems to have come from underestimating reckless.  Arcanist I don't think anyone anti ipated Sandeeps power levels.   With TT  it seems to be a correction from earlier perceived(I believe incorrectly) weakness.

[4thstringer]

Now,  I will say we got some really good stuff in wave 5 in guild,   and I expect some good showings in 2018.

[Tokapondora]

I'm not sure saying TT placing above Guild means TT is too strong, favoured or dominating. It'd sooner hint to problems with Guild instead.

http://www.malifaux-rankings.com/#/events

Here's the UK's tourney rankings, where TT seems to do rather dismally. It seems to measure from May 2017 onward only, but http://www.malifaux-rankings.com/#/factions places them last. Like @skoatz said, I wouldn't call TT weak, but I'd disagree with them being a problem. The new toys may prove otherwise but up until that point it seems middle of the road-y at best.

 

Edit, nifty list like @4thstringer gave us to spare you the hassle;

Best position for Guild and TT respectively in 20+ people tournaments...

• 1/32 Troubleshooters 2
• 26/17 Enforcers Assemble
• 3/14 League of Extraordinary Henchmen 2017
• 6/11 Here be Dragons 2017
• 12/4 Vappafaux 2017
• 2/6 Zoned Out
• 13/21 Lost Love 5
• 7/3 Snowdown II
• 3/12 Infaux Overload
• 5/6 Broken Promises
• 2/11 Under the Hanging Tree - Hot off the Press
• 1/10 Pork's Rift
• 1/7 April Faux
• 18/11 Haul of Eggs 5
• 6/8 Spring Breach 2017
• 7/15 Cow Wars 4
• 4/16 Spring Showdown III
• 3/15 Heartfaux 2017
• 7/5 No Faux King Clue
• 9/19 Malfunctional
• 6/3 Pig Daddy
• 5/13 Under the Hanging Tree - Strength of the Fallen
• 14/13 English GT 2017
• 3/7 Scottish GT 17
• 3/14 Summer Showdown
• 14/20 Pigfaux 2
• 1/11 Tinker, Taelor, Soldier, Spy
• 8/12 Fluffy Bunny Roadkill
• 6/3 Boarfaux 2
• 12/1 Somer'Faux
• 1/18 Falldown III

That's 1 First place and 3 top 3's total for TT vs Guild's 12 top 3's, 5 of which are #1. With TT scoring above Guild only 8 times out of 31. Guild averaging at 6.6th place and TT on 11.1.