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Gremlins and GG18 - A new hope?!? (current state)


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3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

There are a few boring public demo tricks and I agree that it isn't one of the better designed schemes but it's still only 3vp, that doesn't mean an auto lose like it sounds in this thread. The opponent should reasonably have a plan for scoring 3vp off their schemes and counterbuilding for public demo should make it possible to deny the easy 3vp. Take a backfield master or an alpha strike and kill the likely offenders. It's a bit silly that it even counts on enforcers though, makes counter building a bit tricker so only killing the right models remains an option for most lists.

 

4 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

what I would do is take the now hated stuffed piglets/pere and throw them with the tanukis

this way they all detonate each other t1/t2 giving less models for opponent to grab points from.

 

Again it will be NPE because of what it does.

On the Public demo scheme - its just naturally bad.

having 3 Bunrakus walk 21 inches with strum on an out-activation Colodi game for T1 Public Demo was also very very lame.

Indeed, Public Demo is just a "meh" scheme, and the problem is that if it's in the same pool as Set Up it becomes possibly quite annoying...sure you need 4 out-activation advantage, but that's not that hard to obtain with Gremlins (at least 2 or 3) and in any case the opponent has no clue about who is the target...having to hire a 10SS merc is not really a viable solution. Really, how many crews hire Lovelace out of faction just because they're scared of possibly facing the pigapult+tanuki? Heck, I don't even know how many people actually own Lovelace apart from Resser players...

Scoring your own VP is not really a counter, is what any player is tryiing to do anyway :D

Killing Pigapult or Tanuki is the only possible counter I see, but that's pretty hard if they're all hidden in the deployment zone...Pigapult doesn't even need LoS so could be well behind a building!

I think the combo is actually pretty bad. It's good that the community got to know about it, but I am convinced it'll be addressed asap.

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The tanuki trick requires 2 specific schemes and taking brewie. It's only 8+3*15=23ss but you need to outactivate your opponent so some ss will likely go for outactivations (bayous for example). Your tanukis are very likely to die really fast after that so you can't use them for anything else. In the rare pools i saw public demo + set up i felt too risky to do the trick because i had the feeling my opponent could too easily score more vp with half my crew (or more) doing nothing in term of firghting. Also if this really become popular you can see it coming when you know before making your list that your opponent is gremlins (have brewie) and the 2 schemes are in the pool, you can then take some counter.

I agree that public demo may be too easy for some crews but even for theses crews it is still risky, just one of your guy dead too soon and 1vp is lost forever. With collodi or the pigapult (that i both play) it felt like 3 sure vp but i was still a little nervous, my guys can die to soon, maybe they will die instantly after scoring and i would be too far behind in fighting power. For example one of my last game i took it with bushwackers and pigapult in public execution. I wanted to send them end of turn 5 and thats it. But if the game didn't end i may have given free strat vp to my opponent.

I would love to see statistic on schemes some day like what are the most pick, which one score more on average and so on just to see which one are too good (or weak).

My main argument to keep public demo though is the crew building. As a collodi/gremlin (mainly ulix) player i always took a lot of minions but in gg2018 minions are very weaker in scheming capacity. Guarded treasure is now non minion for example and globaly more resilient models are needed (at least it's a general saying i see on this forum). It is good that at least one scheme 'rewards' you for playing minion and 'punish' henchman/enforcer heavy crews.

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36 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

 

Indeed, Public Demo is just a "meh" scheme, and the problem is that if it's in the same pool as Set Up it becomes possibly quite annoying...sure you need 4 out-activation advantage, but that's not that hard to obtain with Gremlins (at least 2 or 3) and in any case the opponent has no clue about who is the target...having to hire a 10SS merc is not really a viable solution. Really, how many crews hire Lovelace out of faction just because they're scared of possibly facing the pigapult+tanuki? Heck, I don't even know how many people actually own Lovelace apart from Resser players...

Scoring your own VP is not really a counter, is what any player is tryiing to do anyway :D

Killing Pigapult or Tanuki is the only possible counter I see, but that's pretty hard if they're all hidden in the deployment zone...Pigapult doesn't even need LoS so could be well behind a building!

I think the combo is actually pretty bad. It's good that the community got to know about it, but I am convinced it'll be addressed asap.

In the event of a careless TO that allowed this scheme combination to slip through I wouldn't be above borrowing Anna from one of my resser buddies. I do think allowing these two together is an oversight from a TO but I don't think the pigapult is that unique in abusing it. It isn't that much worse than luring the model with three belles, another popular tactic for the conbination. The lure trick has the bonus of not exposing your vulnerable models and in most cases being able to combo with then killing the model or whatever you want to do in the strat.

I don't feel the pigapult and tanuki will be so safe in the current game state either. Neverborn can deploy any model they want from the shadows these days so your deployment zone is in no way safe. An awful lot of crews across most factions can reach into your deployment turn 1 and kill models with pushes or bury tricks. 

I agree with @Aegnor that it's nice to have schemes that try to push for more minions but I'm not sure it's the right execution. Maybe a reverse hunting party where minions want to kill higher stations for VP would be nice.

After all the gremlin outcry about the pigapult being useless and them being screwed over in all the latest errata I'm not sure they'll change it but who knows. I wouldn't risk it but I'm thankfully not a game designer. When people argue that the pigapult is useless they seem to concentrate on the damage aspect being nerfed by stuffed piglets and forget the positioning. If the pigapult is so bad it isn't worth taking, why is this use a problem? Flying corn husk piglets are another really annoying thing when you are trying to do marker schemes against gremlins and launching a few models to deny interference as your very last activation each turn is also super strong. I guess I'm just confused by the pigapult being too bad to use and at the same time too op for the game.

 

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4 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

After all the gremlin outcry about the pigapult being useless and them being screwed over in all the latest errata I'm not sure they'll change it but who knows. I wouldn't risk it but I'm thankfully not a game designer. When people argue that the pigapult is useless they seem to concentrate on the damage aspect being nerfed by stuffed piglets and forget the positioning. If the pigapult is so bad it isn't worth taking, why is this use a problem? Flying corn husk piglets are another really annoying thing when you are trying to do marker schemes against gremlins and launching a few models to deny interference as your very last activation each turn is also super strong. I guess I'm just confused by the pigapult being too bad to use and at the same time too op for the game.

 

This is the big paradox of the pigapult as it is now. Launch can be an extremely powerfull ability for scheming but at the same time the pigapult shooting capacity is now pretty bad for its cost. Personaly i love to use the pigapult for shooting but i'm not a big fan of launch. I still use it because it feels just very easy in some schemes pools and i have the model which is one of my favorite (maybe THE favorite) of my collection. In my last game i used if for symbols (BBB reactivating bayous), public demo and undercover entourage (launch trixie last turn).

I think the designers have to chose what is the role of the pigapult. It can't be a shooting platform and a launching platform. One aspect will always be bad otherwise the pigapult would be just too powerfull.

I would gladly see launch removed/reworked to have my shooting pigapult back.

Or my favorite idea : make the pigapult actualy launching models, like the ulix pig slingshot. 

 

 

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The only slightly comparable models are probably austringers. Their attack is definitely more useful and they also offer some scheme help. Cheaper but usually easier to kill. They don't put three models anywhere on the table though. The pigapult has a very low expected damage output for 8ss, I have seen it used more for the mobility with one or two stuffed to use as bacon for the crucial damage turns. But low damage on any model on the board can be better than slightly higher damage on certain models. It'shard to fairly price the ability to kill the scary Vik in the first activation of the game. I would gladly spend 11 ss for that!

 

@edopersichetti I didn't expand on Anna but she is actually not a bad hire in my opinion. Rush of magic is never wrong, her attack has flat damage but good weak on a Ca and doesn't randomize. Her Vortex has cause me no end of trouble and her auras are solid for shutting down gremlin movement shenanigans. Glimpse is a bit risky against gremlins who can often accept losing a cheap model to unbury your model in a bad place but in many games it can serve as a great mobility trick.

 

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Unreal how people already scream for Fix this broken tanuki combo asap... 

I played this in ours with setup and public demo, and then after I scored my 7 vp I got murdered and lost 8/7.... 

 

I really suggest to play against the real npe broken shit in this game before whining about the fking tanukipult which is a gimmick combo in 1 strat and scheme pool out of 50 with a master that is not one of the top masters of malifaux. 

 

Like honestly, think again, do you really think that with all the shit you can do in malifaux, a pigapult with brewie and 3 tanukis is the problem that has to be fixed? 

Meet me in a Vassal game with  ours + public demo + setup and take the "unfair" tanukipult. Name any faction you want me to play and I'll bet you 1000 scrip that I'll win with ease...

Litterally just some instant ideas:

TT:

- Pathfinders kill the pigapult turn 1 in the first activation

- Asami does what she does, out activates you to the max and eats both the schememarkers and the tanukis before any vp are scored

- misaki kills all tanuki on turn 1

Arc: 

- collette crew: literally thanks for the scheme markers and the food you send me

- Ramos: try to out activate me pls

- Kaeris: takes 3 Ice dancers and grab and drop and turn 1 its 6:6 cause she can score both schemes just like you do and ice dancers do way more afterwards then tanukis do + they cost 18 ss while youre tanukipult costs 23ss.

- Sandeep: countless reasons why he laughs at this

Neverborn:

- Malifaux provides

- Mysterious Emissary

- Collodi with outactivation

- Blutgunin

Outcasts:

- where do you want to fling the tanukis when your crew got murdered by the viks/misaki/levi/.../.... already

- Parker: thanks for the money

Gremlins:

- First mate, Zipp, treasure map

- Pigs

- Sammy

- Brewmaster with running tab (lol)

Guild:

- Nellie

- Investigators

- dog with saber kills pigapult

- Perditas new Upgrade 

Ressers:

- Molly eats markers

- Phillip eats markers

- Flesh constructs eat tanukis

- Mcmourning on a kentauroi eats the pigapult and the tanukis

- Nicodem: He is Nicodem

 

 

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Don't want to say nutting but its the guy with a Tanuki in his avatar and the name "I am a teapot" that is strongly opposed to the nerf...

 

That said I think its important not to ask faction players what is good or bad int heir faction, but rather to look on the other side of the fence and ask, as an example, Gremlin players what you see Guild players play the most and what they play the least. This way you can get a better feel for the top or the bottom without over and under buffing models.

(hint bad juju going down 1ss, so did the swamp mother with the already released will o-o wisps)

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11 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

I spoke with your opponent, he was rather furious, so it must not have been fun for him :D

Yeah, I definitely get that. I don't think he had ever player Symbols of Authority, or seen the pigapault to be honest. He basically threw 2 crooligans (necropunks?) to me turn one, and then never even tried to defend his symbols. 

 

TBH, i'm kinda leaning away from gremlins right now anyway for reasons such as this. I got a lot of salt from my opponent round two as well, and this was just for using swill and the drinking contest, the only things my master is able to do... (he meanwhile was using the Titania/Barbaros double taunt bubble... pretty much the same thing as a drinking contest IMO)

It's gotten to the point where I feel like I have to exploit mechanics to be competitive in gremlins. Then after matches I get to hear about how my list was un-fun or something like that.

I've been playing NB since LVO, ad apparently me just killing the whole enemy crew is more fun then gremlin tricks... Whatever lol, the game is a lot more fun for me when I don't have to deal with hearing about how my lists are un-fun, or seeing my opponent check out. 

 

*edit* - I would like to say this is not me calling out my round two opponent. He did acknowledge his reaction, and by the end we had a decent game. It is just hard for me to stay involved when I see my opponent check out, for whatever reason.

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12 minutes ago, Flinroz said:

Yeah, I definitely get that. I don't think he had ever player Symbols of Authority, or seen the pigapault to be honest. He basically threw 2 crooligans (necropunks?) to me turn one, and then never even tried to defend his symbols. 

 

TBH, i'm kinda leaning away from gremlins right now anyway for reasons such as this. I got a lot of salt from my opponent round two as well, and this was just for using swill and the drinking contest, the only things my master is able to do... (he meanwhile was using the Titania/Barbaros double taunt bubble... pretty mush the same thing as a drinking contest IMO)

It's gotten to the point where I feel like I have to exploit mechanics to be competitive in gremlins. Then after matches I get to hear about how my list was un-fun or something like that.

I've been playing NB since LVO, ad apparently me just killing the whole enemy crew is more fun then gremlin tricks... Whatever lol, the game is a lot more fun for me when I don't have to deal with hearing about how my lists are un-fun, or seeing my opponent check out. 

Gremlins; the only faction that is simultaneously brokenly OP and also underpowered and neglected by the devs.

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I totaly agree with @I'm a Teapot!. tanuki+pigapult is not so broken and is far from the top in the list of 'need to be nerfed asap' things.

Public demo+set up have 13.5% probability to show up in a game so 2 games every 15. (if my maths are correct). Now if each factions are equally played you will face gremlins 1 on 7 games. So you will face gremlins when these two schemes are in the pool once every 52 games. Lets ignore the fact that some strat/scheme pools can make this trick a lot of free vp for your opponent (supply wagons, take prisoners for example).

So once every 52 games, where you know this may happen while listbuilding. you then saw oponnent crew which is brewie + half ss total for the tricks. So you are now 99% sure the trick is happening. If then you don't manage to counter it or score more vp maybe you deserve to lose.

 

People are too vocal when gremlins are involved and this is again one sad example. How many people played this trick or against it? How many played or played against other faction 'exploits' and didn't complain about it?

If every 'working' gremlin trick is seen as an exploit how are we supposed to play them fair?

If your read this forum  you get the impression that 90% of gremlins models are bad and the last 10% is so broken that you gremlins are still op. It is very annoying as the player to have this feeling that you almost 'need' to play glowy, iron skeeter, zipp if you wanna win but knowing that people will be frustrated if you beat them like this. 

I know you can win without playing these models. I never take them and i'm doing fine in my games. But every time you lose while playing 'fair' when your opponent is not (ie using some of his faction 'exploits' or 'too good' models) its hard to not thing your factions is too weak : no one is arguing/saying that your opponent models are exploits/op so your models have to be weak right?

If everyone's knowledge/memory about malifaux was wiped rigth now i wonder what the meta will be like. Very different from today i think. Just try to have a new look and try 'non competitive' list with your mates and you can have very fun games. My last game i played pigapult without ammo, survivors, bushwahckers and not a single slop hauler. I had a very fun time and didn't lost a single model surprinsingly.

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13 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Don't want to say nutting but its the guy with a Tanuki in his avatar and the name "I am a teapot" that is strongly opposed to the nerf...

 

That said I think its important not to ask faction players what is good or bad int heir faction, but rather to look on the other side of the fence and ask, as an example, Gremlin players what you see Guild players play the most and what they play the least. This way you can get a better feel for the top or the bottom without over and under buffing models.

(hint bad juju going down 1ss, so did the swamp mother with the already released will o-o wisps)

So , Mr Polish Sausage, are we talking about forum names now? 

I btw play Outcast, Neverborn, Gremlins, Arcanists and Ressers and multiple masters in each of those factions. Also I play all of those factions on tournaments regularly. My Forum Name might aswell be Mark of Shezuul or You remind me of a babe.... 

Have you seen the forgotten marshal and a malifaux raptor score all symbol markers with ease while 2 Grootslang defend the own markers in a Mcmourining crew? 

Have you seen your own yasunori kill half of your own crew and then die to burning while he is drawing the enemy zoraida tons of cards? (who is on the other side of the board)

Have you seen Ironsides appear inside of your crew at the start of turn 2 with 8+ adrenalin?

Have you seen a fast recalled training Lazarus in Jakob Lynches I always cheat last bubble followed by a 20 dmg final dept?

Have you seen a Killjoy with decaying aura killing your master turn 1 after molly was taken up the field by a kentauroi?

Have you seen a Leveticus with teather, survivalist and untimely demise unburry next to that peon in your crew that hans just shott? (I then oneshot Yin with 1 ap of levi) and when you kill Levi he does 2 dmg aoe and just goes back to his crew and marlena doesnt even take dmg cause of the terracotta

Have you seen Misaki with survivalist risk and reward and marlena and tried to kill her? (she survived a fast yas charge and a recalled training lone swordsman and healed up to full hp at the end of the turn)

Have you seen a summoing pandora crew 100% to 0% Joss, Howard and the firestarter in one turn? 

Have you seen min 6 Nekima?

Have you seen Tara beastbombing fast Hayredding and his shotgun within 4" of the enemy? (or Hayreddin +  a Hallozinogened Hannah, if you really wanna have fun)

Have you seen Glowy Lazarus copy the dmg buff from a bloodwretch that was made into a construct by Sparks? 

Have you seen Papa Loco unburry just inside your crew with +1" to all his pulses? (Jackdaw Hans combo)

Have you seen Gremlin Zoraida paralyze model after model to be finished by mancha rocha?

Have you seen Nicodem summoning Kentauroi that get to walk 6 and then charge 10" in the activation after the got summoned? 

Have you seen Pere being dropped anywhere on the board by a malifaux raptor with poorly handled explosives on him and enough burning to kill him after he got dropped?

I could go on for ages... 

I've done all of those things and I have won a lot with those combos. I've also played the tanuki pult and it literally sucks in comparison. 

I suggest as a gremlin player fearing the tanukipult and crying for a nerf you should go play agaisnt some serious players from other factions and you will soon be able to understand what really is a npe broken combo in this game. 

Sry, but this bullshit yammering about gremlin stuff tilts me hard... 

 

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I'm sorry to have apparently started a big discussion. 

17 hours ago, Flinroz said:

Yeah, I definitely get that. I don't think he had ever player Symbols of Authority, or seen the pigapault to be honest. He basically threw 2 crooligans (necropunks?) to me turn one, and then never even tried to defend his symbols. 

 

TBH, i'm kinda leaning away from gremlins right now anyway for reasons such as this. I got a lot of salt from my opponent round two as well, and this was just for using swill and the drinking contest, the only things my master is able to do... (he meanwhile was using the Titania/Barbaros double taunt bubble... pretty much the same thing as a drinking contest IMO)

It's gotten to the point where I feel like I have to exploit mechanics to be competitive in gremlins. Then after matches I get to hear about how my list was un-fun or something like that.

I've been playing NB since LVO, ad apparently me just killing the whole enemy crew is more fun then gremlin tricks... Whatever lol, the game is a lot more fun for me when I don't have to deal with hearing about how my lists are un-fun, or seeing my opponent check out. 

 

*edit* - I would like to say this is not me calling out my round two opponent. He did acknowledge his reaction, and by the end we had a decent game. It is just hard for me to stay involved when I see my opponent check out, for whatever reason.

Sorry - I didn't want to imply anything bad about you or your playstyle. I just wanted to mention the Tanuki + Pigapult combo as an example of, as you say, exploiting mechanics to be competitive in Gremlins, of which I am not a big fan. I don't think it is necessary - personally I try to win games without having to resort to these combos, it is definitely possible :) 

I'm just speaking against this kind of combos (in my own faction) because they can be detrimental. When stuff like this happens, it brings an errata - sometimes the "fix" is a bit ham fisted and can bring more damage than the original issue. A perfect example is with Stuffed: players were exploiting them for out-activation, they got nerfed, but the nerf didn't just solve the problem, it actually resulted in a damage for the whole faction (we all know at 3SS they are rather useless hires). I'd hate to see the same happen: in trying to address Tanuki + Pigapult, comes an errata which actually nerfs either model (in particular Pigapult) beyond what the scope of the fix should be.

@I'm a Teapot! the fact that other factions have their own "filthy" combos should not justify Gremlins following suit, but rather the opposite, it should hopefully lead to said combos to be addressed as well (see Papa in a Box, for instance).

p.s. I also play Neverborn and Arcanists, so I do have quite a few different perspectives
p.p.s. last time I saw Ironsides appear in the middle of my crew Turn 2 (together with Joss), I won the game 9-3 ;)
p.p.p.s. that combo with Oxfordian mages + Captain pushing like there's no tomorrow is nevertheless quite bonkers :D

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17 hours ago, Flinroz said:

Yeah, I definitely get that. I don't think he had ever player Symbols of Authority, or seen the pigapault to be honest. He basically threw 2 crooligans (necropunks?) to me turn one, and then never even tried to defend his symbols. 

 

TBH, i'm kinda leaning away from gremlins right now anyway for reasons such as this. I got a lot of salt from my opponent round two as well, and this was just for using swill and the drinking contest, the only things my master is able to do... (he meanwhile was using the Titania/Barbaros double taunt bubble... pretty much the same thing as a drinking contest IMO)

It's gotten to the point where I feel like I have to exploit mechanics to be competitive in gremlins. Then after matches I get to hear about how my list was un-fun or something like that.

I've been playing NB since LVO, ad apparently me just killing the whole enemy crew is more fun then gremlin tricks... Whatever lol, the game is a lot more fun for me when I don't have to deal with hearing about how my lists are un-fun, or seeing my opponent check out. 

 

*edit* - I would like to say this is not me calling out my round two opponent. He did acknowledge his reaction, and by the end we had a decent game. It is just hard for me to stay involved when I see my opponent check out, for whatever reason.

Your favorite master in party mode is generally regarded as deeply unfun to play against since you can dangle his most favorite toys just out of reach in the drinking bubble.  It's 1st edition Hamlin all over again.  The fact that you can turn around and tanuki-pult him in the face for 6 more VP while he's helplessly sucking down drinks is the icing on a very boozy cake.

I say this as the guy who helpfully suggested both lists that happened in that round 2 game, not realizing the cavalcade of sadness that would occur from an immovable object hitting another immovable object.

219193-Cute-Sorry-Quote.jpg

 

Clearly the answer was Zipp. 

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I honestly think that due to large model availability we are running into problematic combos, usually its very "master thematic" models being used in other crews.

I know combo's are all good an nice but do we really need to give viks/misaki 4 abom -> to deso engine and 4 cards? It is starting to feel like rat engine activation control in a non-hemlin list.

 

Also do all outcast masters need access to void wretches? With cheap desperate mercs that are now a faction staple we do not need some of the more "wankier" combos out there.

At this point its starting to feel we need to restrict certain theme models to master only hiring in order to prevent current and future abuse.

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31 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

I honestly think that due to large model availability we are running into problematic combos, usually its very "master thematic" models being used in other crews.

I know combo's are all good an nice but do we really need to give viks/misaki 4 abom -> to deso engine and 4 cards? It is starting to feel like rat engine activation control in a non-hemlin list.

 

Also do all outcast masters need access to void wretches? With cheap desperate mercs that are now a faction staple we do not need some of the more "wankier" combos out there.

At this point its starting to feel we need to restrict certain theme models to master only hiring in order to prevent current and future abuse.

200% agree. We need more keyword or like restrictions. Lot of stuff Can just get out of control with no limitations. 

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2 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

I'm sorry to have apparently started a big discussion. 

Sorry - I didn't want to imply anything bad about you or your playstyle. I just wanted to mention the Tanuki + Pigapult combo as an example of, as you say, exploiting mechanics to be competitive in Gremlins, of which I am not a big fan. I don't think it is necessary - personally I try to win games without having to resort to these combos, it is definitely possible :) 

No worries. That was the point I was making as well. I really was just seeing if the gimmick would fall on it's face immediately out of the gate.

The idea to not play gimmicks is interesting. I think we can all see that the tanuki-pault is a gimmick, but where do you start calling synergies gimmicks. As it stands at the moment I'd personally rather just play a different faction where I don't have to self-police my lists. Just what I'm feeling about gremlins ATM :lol:

1 hour ago, Clement said:

Your favorite master in party mode is generally regarded as deeply unfun to play against since you can dangle his most favorite toys just out of reach in the drinking bubble.  It's 1st edition Hamlin all over again.  The fact that you can turn around and tanuki-pult him in the face for 6 more VP while he's helplessly sucking down drinks is the icing on a very boozy cake. 

Very true, and this is the problem. If you like Brewmaster then you are kinda in a sticky situation. You either play him like he is supposed to be played, and make things un-fun, or just don't play the master you find fun. I personally don't see a solution to this problem, haha.

The answer for me personally is to take a break from Brewmaster, and just play other things that are more fun for both sides. 

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@Flinroz

A player with some experiebce against Brewmaster ajould surely be avle to cope. Fight the good fight until everyone has woken up with a hangover and adjust their play to face him! ;)

If you can break gremlins you can probably break any other faction and feel you have to police yourself there. Switching up factions is fun though, wish I'd done it a lot sooner.

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