Gremlins and GG18 - A new hope?!? (current state)

[I'm a Teapot!]

In my opinion, the last weeks have been pretty meh for us gremlins players since the toys we got in book 5 seemed to be a lot less exciting compared to what other factions got.

While the general problem of our factions isn't really top end balance but is internal balance I still had a feeling we would drop quiet a bit in top end power since some factions got quiet a bit better while we pretty much stayed the same. 

 

After playing some gg18 tho I have a feeling that we got some models that are just right for the new strats and schemes. Also some existing models just jump up a huge bit in the power curve when it comes to gg18.

So what I've noticed is:

- gg18 has a whole lot more interaction based things and this includes Strategies. Headhunter was always a good thing for gremlins, since we got the ap to do this pretty well and also a lot of heads dropped in a gremlingame.

- GG18 brings us a strategy that is fully based on model to model interaction (ply for information) and  two strategies  based on marker interaction and engagement (symbols of authoroty) (supply wagons). 

- Ply for information favors ap and survivability, which balances it for bayou gremlins but things like the new gatreau bokor protection buff is a huge gain in this scenario. 

- Symbols of Authoroty and supply wagons need protection of your own markers via engagement and pushes to keep them away and things like dont mind me become really really powerfull in this scenario. Also agile seems really usefull in this scenario. (maybe the new wong upgrade is better than we thaught) (fingers...)

 

What do you think about gg18 and gremlins?

Of course there are changes to come, but since the playtesting just made a larger step to a new version it feels like at least parts of the current state will carry over into the final gg18.

[Dogmantra]

ply for information marks the return of the distract piglets

[lame0]

I think we are pretty decent at gg18. My main issue is that our balance is worse now because both Wong & Zipp are worse compared to the new crowd of good masters and I feel to be competitive I need to be playing Somer most of the time....Ulix got better but he does have a bunch of bad match ups (against popular masters) so it’s hard to take him into some factions.

Maybe as I play more GG18 I’ll change my mind but so far our best models seem to still be the same ones from before. (Bokor seems cool but I am not convinced it’s worth 7ss given it’s limitations besides it (0)).

I will say though that I think Gremlins were better at GG17 since claim jump was such an easy scheme (most of the time). Guarded treasure is pretty hard, I think eliminate is out of the question 50% of the time, punish the weak is a pain. Surround them isn’t bad though. So now instead of 100% of the time it’s less than 25% of the time that we have a favorable scheme built in.

From strategies I think ours is tough (our models are not very resilient). I personally hate public execution  (only one side scoring is annoying and makes it way to easy to run away with the game since with this objective if your scoring then 90% of the time it means your ahead in models you have alive etc. our strongest models kill themselves with dumb luck and such so it makes it hard to kill and then play keep away. Tbh it seems like it promotes gun lines since it counteracts the always scheme and leaves your models well protected.) ply for information seems fine since your giving up an action to get ahead and either a highly defensive or activation control strategy can work. Symbols of authority I like and marker placement seems fun since based on your crew you can place the markers all the way in the back or somewhat centrally to make them easier to protect. I have not tried supply wagon but for a joker scheme it seems fun and Ulix will probably like it.

 

[I'm a Teapot!]

My experience with symbols and supply wagons: Fingers won the games on his own. 
 

It's really fun when you sending fingers up to their supply wagon and push it back while they cant interact cause of chatty and cant stop you from interacting cause of dont mind me. This resultet in 2 Illuminated trying to kill fingers over I think 3 turns while he just completly denied the strategy for my opponent. 

Almost the same thing happened in the symbols game where I was playing against a seamus crew. Fingers removed all of his symbols with 3 belles and Sybelle sitting in the back field trying to protect them and just doing nothing to fingers (he even used the lures and pounces for his own advantage and squeeled towards the next symbols)

I think I have to try wong in those strategies, since 3+ models with dont mind me and agile just seem to good to pass on.

 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

5 hours ago, lame0 said:

(Bokor seems cool but I am not convinced it’s worth 7ss given it’s limitations besides it (0)).

Bokor is only 6SS, though.

I think that Gremlins got Wrastlers, Bokor, and Criers that all seem fine and will probably make their way into various lists. I'm not sure that they raise the power level of the faction as such (like many of the things that other factions got such as the utterly bonkers Stemfitters). Bayou Smuggler, Big Brain Brin, and Flying Piglets are quite disappointing, though.

[wizuriel]

The supply wagon is a ht3 50mm blocking base, in my experience it isn't too hard to get at least 1 push on the wagon using it to block Los to fingers.

[wizuriel]

8 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

ply for information marks the return of the distract piglets

Distract piglets?

[I'm a Teapot!]

39 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

The supply wagon is a ht3 50mm blocking base, in my experience it isn't too hard to get at least 1 push on the wagon using it to block Los to fingers.

Sure if you can disengage him first or you have enough people around. But thats a good trade for me.

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, wizuriel said:

Distract piglets?

Piglets are pretty phenomenal in the original Distract Scheme as their long Charge for 1 AP and their Df make them very nice at it. And those qualities transfer to Ply for Information nicely.

[lame0]

To clarify my option on the future of gremlins...I think it will be an uphill battle. Even though GG18 looks interesting we are very good at GG17 so changing calendar years isn’t going to help.

Will maybe a master/model move up in the rankings due to some interactions..... it’s possible. Will gremlins be better in GG18 than GG17? I honestly don’t think so. Overall “Ours”(Intereference was way better for us), the loss of Claim Jump, & Public execution change the game dramatically for gremlins. If you are flipping for games that means 48% of stratagies are much harder and we lost the always scheme which was almost always one I would take. Throw in the fact that basically every faction but ours got stronger models & upgrades (we got a couple upgrades that were decent but no big game changers on our good masters), leaves me quite positive we will be worse off than before. Not to say it’s the end of the world but we will just be less good with minor change from wave 5.

[Math Mathonwy]

I feel that that is a very cogent analysis.

[Ikiwith]

I think that it's too early to determinante if our faction is going to be worse than in the GG17.

[Ludvig]

9 minutes ago, Ikiwith said:

I think that it's too early to determinante if our faction is going to be worse than in the GG17.

But wild speculation is the lifeblood of these forums!  

No matter what the new equivalent of always schemes are going to be I think it's going to be harder to do than claim jump. It was such a no brainer for gremlins.

I find it harder to speculate on the numbered ones but no matter how they end up you will still actually need to make a choice of two instead of claim + 1 so there's a higher risk of not liking your options.

 

Can't comment on the strength of the new models, if your new stuff really sucks I can only offer my condolences. 

If you try to stay positive I think the way several schemes look right now I'm not sure gremlins are taking a bigger hit than others. Your masters are often tricky to kill and power ritual used to be a gremlin's wet dream. The hunting party equivalent can surely be used to your advantage as long as you son't insist on spamming the board with damaged gremlins.

The pigapult might make a comeback as a teleport machine to go as your last activation if all those positioning schemes stay in the game. The excellent 6-7ss killers and bayous might still stay strong if soulstones keep affecting the VP of some schemes. 

[WWHSD]

On 11/5/2017 at 5:11 AM, lame0 said:

I think we are pretty decent at gg18. My main issue is that our balance is worse now because both Wong & Zipp are worse compared to the new crowd of good masters and I feel to be competitive I need to be playing Somer most of the time....Ulix got better but he does have a bunch of bad match ups (against popular masters) so it’s hard to take him into some factions.

I'm not a Gremlin player but the Dread Pirate Zipp upgrade seems like it was a nice boost for Zipp. 

[I'm a Teapot!]

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

I'm not a Gremlin player but the Dread Pirate Zipp upgrade seems like it was a nice boost for Zipp. 

I've played about 15 games with it so far and I love it. It enables playing Zipp with no other upgrades and only his 4cache and still score 3vp with entourage and be a huge threat on the board. 

[Math Mathonwy]

19 hours ago, Ikiwith said:

I think that it's too early to determinante if our faction is going to be worse than in the GG17.

Naturally. But speculation is fun!

[Ikiwith]

Yes, sure. We always says that gremlins were greater before than now and we are on the first place tiene with resser in the global camping. I think that we have great models for the GG18. We have been crying about the new upgrades but Ophelia upgrades are solid and she has a new mechanic playstyle.

Ulixwith no slow pigs (welcome).

Wong both upgrades can be useful (lazarus, Wong and Sammy with sparkly ligths hace yo be very fun). 

Mah now is playable.

I have played against the dread pirate zipp and it's anoying.

Sommer ok, but he doesn't need much more than nos.

Zoraida is not gremlin.

About brewmaster I can't Talk so much.

But in relationship with the new Gg18, pigapult p.e. the pigaplult I think that can be very useful un some games, repositioning models.

[I'm a Teapot!]

Global ratings are pretty much useless tho because many people play on a really uncompetitive level. Pigapult got nerfed really hard with the now expensive explosive piglets. 

[Ikiwith]

3 hours ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Global ratings are pretty much useless tho because many people play on a really uncompetitive level. Pigapult got nerfed really hard with the now expensive explosive piglets. 

I consider that use the pigapult with the stuffed piglet is not the best use for it. I prefer use it on Ulix crew to throw piglets on your enemies to engage them, remove scheme markers with corn husks (it doesn't matter if they are paralyzed), scheme runners reactivating them with the hog whisperer and If after that, you have enough piglets on game, you can shoot with them. The same in a summoner Sommer's crew and the BBB.

[Ludvig]

I think the main use for the pigapult is the teleport aspect allowing you to get wherever you want on the table. I've faced it a bunch of times and the attacks have never done as much as the VP from just placing a model wherever you need it on the table.

It's really hard to hold quarters against and you can just put a gremlin on an otherwise inaccessible roof and scheme away. The cornhusks mentioned.are also really oppressive. Just consider being the opponent of the gremlin player and trying to place markers in three corners and then keeping the markers i your own corner safe from flying gremlins/pigs. How many ss of models are you prepared to divert to that task? 

 

[Jinn]

From a non-Gremlin player, pigapult looks pretty good with the Tanuki in brewmaster crews. 24"place, you drop a scheme marker when you activate and then count as two models for the strategy (which seems more effective in old pools, but ours still should work I think).

I'm not very experienced with gremlins, but I saw this combo and it seemed pretty neat.

[Adran]

20 hours ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Global ratings are pretty much useless tho because many people play on a really uncompetitive level. Pigapult got nerfed really hard with the now expensive explosive piglets. 

I still stand by if you want the stuffed piglets as stuffed piglets, so for things like Pigapult ammo, then they are still worth their cost. Its almost exclusively people that were hiring them to out activate that will find that they aren't worth it now. 

Sure, you only get 3 turns of Explosive pigapult ammo instead of 4 for the same price, but that is still worthwhile. 

[lame0]

Dread pirate Zipp is cool. It is a trade off though since you give up being on the board for your auras etc. That upgrade is pretty good but again all I said was I didn’t think it dramatically changed Zipp given he had some of the best mobility anyway. I do like the mood swings on bayous but 6 inch range isn’t amazing for what are pretty squishy models. I’ve only played 4 games with the new Zipp upgrade thus far but It is one of decent ones we got. 

Btw im not making assumptions I’m just stating that certain strategies and schemes are much harder for gremlins than it is now. It may be balanced out a bit because it’s harder for other factions but GG17 was great for gremlins and based on the most recent iteration of the GG18 data it definitely seems less influenced by activation control and model count which are some of the things we did very well in GG17 (thus it makes us less good).

in terms of the pigapult it’s okay and has its uses but it is worse than when ammo was only 2ss. It’s weird to me that the sow is the cheapest ammo for it bar summoning now.

 

[SinJ]

I also think it's way too early to assume but from my games all strats and schemes are harder to score in general so that does make things more difficult for us in staying around. However we still have loads of models with superior AP (Reckless) and/or hit significantly above their Soulstone cost. We still can cheat Initiative with Trixie and we still can spam activation and AP control via Bayou Gremlins. I think we will find a way.

[Ikiwith]

I have been looking at some different Game report during the GG18 and I think that it's not only difficult for gremlin,it's also difficult for some other factions. Mostly of the game end with 6-8 VP and only few of them have 10 VP.