Fetid Strumpet Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 Ummm no, I've said multiple times Hanged shouldn't be summonable. Granted they would be worthless in their current form if you couldn't summon them, but the Hanged are just, with how the game has evolved, an overly conservative and badly designed model. I'd much rather them get a complete rework and remove their ability to be summoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 On 3.11.2017 at 7:59 PM, Ludvig said: After m2e released everyone kept saying I needed Francisco but I hated the model. After a loosing streak I caved in and got him. I've played him enough to think I can use him in a proper way and I've lost plenty of games with him in my list. I've also won plenty of games not using him so he is not needed to be successful. Despite that many players keep calling him OP, an auto take, broken etc. and suggest new players get him. Imagine that everything was the same except Francisco's SS was 4SS. You could still win without him and you could still lose with him (he is, after all, just one model). But are you saying that he wouldn't be laughably OP and broken if his cost was 4SS? Being OP usually means being OP in relation to other choices of the same cost not that they are an automatic "win button" which are ridiculously rare (as playtesting usually catches them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 28 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said: Imagine that everything was the same except Francisco's SS was 4SS. You could still win without him and you could still lose with him (he is, after all, just one model). But are you saying that he wouldn't be laughably OP and broken if his cost was 4SS? Being OP usually means being OP in relation to other choices of the same cost not that they are an automatic "win button" which are ridiculously rare (as playtesting usually catches them). Why does this only apply to models outside Gremlin faction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 5 minutes ago, Myyrä said: Why does this only apply to models outside Gremlin faction? Huh? I'm the first to admit that, e.g., Burt is OP. I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise. I used Francisco as an example only because that's who Ludvig used. Could've been Francois just as easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 @Math Mathonwy Nothing is ever an auto win button but OP implies negatively affecting the game in my book. Sure he is good but at 8ss (really 9-10) I think he is competing with some very excellent choices so I wouldn't call him OP. He enables som really aggressive play with most of our masters but I find him easily counterable since he isn't too survivable himself. He usually puts himself at risk to protect whatever he is protecting. He is more expensive than Burt or Johan and they both bring similar damage output. Burt is only doing damage and his survivability thing requires specific conditions but Johan also offers condition removal which can be just as crucial and Johan comes with htk built in. Phiona is also an excellent contender who does damage while also creating terrain and enabling a lot of scheming. Comparing Francisco to Judge I find that Francisco isn't op but Judge is terribly designed with two out of three offensive stats of 5 and a (projectile) on his push which makes him really bad for a primary damage dealer at 9ss. One of his main things is the possibility to trigger lots more attacks but those use a sh 5 making them essentially really bad. If he had actuqlly brrn able to use his push to get enemies out of cover and then unload 4 attacks at sh/ml 6 I think choosing between him and Franc would br a lot tougher. Dashel isn't essentially crappy by design, he just hangs with a bad crowd. If there were a few high-powered guardsman models with sh attacks that ignored armour and incorp and decent survivability his buffs would be an absolute bargain in combination with his statline and he would probably give Franc a run gor his money. I spent too much time arguing this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 44 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said: Huh? I'm the first to admit that, e.g., Burt is OP. I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise. I believe you have ever claimed otherwise, but I guess that is not important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, Ludvig said: Nothing is ever an auto win button but OP implies negatively affecting the game in my book. Frank being OP or not is certainly debatable. He tends to overshadow most of the others in his price bracket. Or at least used to until the power creep of Waves four and five which was kinda brought on by him as it was argued that the new models need to be relevant choices when weighed against Frank which resulted in them being what they now are. But my main argument was that the way you framed being OP or not in the original post would make the concept kinda useless as it would be practically non-existent. I suppose Confrontation's Storm of Light Meliador and Arakan the Duellist 2nd Incarnation might qualify if anyone remembers those. (The first one was rather boring in that it simply allowed you to keep going throwing dice and killing everything in sight and unless you rolled extremely badly, everything just died. The second one was more interesting in that it allowed you to shunt all damage that your models suffered to a cheap model who died only at the end of the round thus meaning that your opponent could kill only one cheap model per turn. Borth were errataed pretty fast after discovery.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 Warmahordes had some pretty OP crap as far as I remember it. If my caster is ever within X of your caster I auto kill you on my turn an thus win the game. Some model made the entire list invulnerable for a turn I think. Stuff that really made the game crap to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 26 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said: Frank being OP or not is certainly debatable. He tends to overshadow most of the others in his price bracket. Or at least used to until the power creep of Waves four and five which was kinda brought on by him as it was argued that the new models need to be relevant choices when weighed against Frank which resulted in them being what they now are. It was argued that new models need to be better than most other Henchmen not named Francisco, because those didn't really see play time. It wasn't just because all crews were filled with Franciscos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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