The Enforcer Problem

[SAYNE]

First of all, I apologise for the shameless click bait title but if you're reading this it worked. Next I wanted to spark a discussion on when and if lower station models should be doing the job of higher station models and if so is that a problem.

The two most guilty offenders off the top of my head are Yasunori and Burt Jebsen. I personally love both of these models but there's something about hearing Gremlins or TT and immediately guessing one of those before you can guess the master that just feels wrong. For Burt, the obvious issue is likely his ultra sweet price tag for his power. For Yas however, I struggle to see how he isn't a henchman. His price, ability, damage, and personality just scream Henchman, and when he outshines literally every henchman in TT at least in the factor of raw strength and versatility, it makes me question that decision. 

Nobody is arguing he isn't priced properly, or that he needs a cuddle (at least me). But it seems like an attempt to keep down a model that Wyrd knew would be too powerful and released anyway. I also understand the parallel to the other factions riders, but none of them have such a game changing impact as Yas. 

The point I suppose, is whether Masters should be outshined by an Enforcer, even when they share similar roles. I know this kinda turned into a Yas rant (sorry again) but I really want to know what you guys think and if other models share this problem. Thanks!

[WWHSD]

I've always been under the Impression that the killiest models in the game tended to be Enforcers.There are some exceptions with killy Masters and Henchmen and some Enforcers that don't do a ton of damage. 

 I wouldn't consider Enforcers stepping on anyone else's role if they are being brought as the big guns of a crew.

[Adran]

I don't agree with your premise that a Minion ought to be worse than an enforcer. 

On the whole I would expect an 8ss Minion to be very slightly better than an 8 ss enforcer, because the enforcer has the advantage of hiring an upgrade, and they should both be better than an 8 SS henchman at face value because the henchman can hire 2 upgrades and can use soulstone. 

 

[Squirrelich]

9 minutes ago, Adran said:

I don't agree with your premise that a Minion ought to be worse than an enforcer. 

On the whole I would expect an 8ss Minion to be very slightly better than an 8 ss enforcer, because the enforcer has the advantage of hiring an upgrade, and they should both be better than an 8 SS henchman at face value because the henchman can hire 2 upgrades and can use soulstone. 

 

I agree with this. 8SS of model should be 8SS of use. The station keywords are just tools to get more use out of the model, not a sign that it "should" be stronger/weaker overall.

[Tokapondora]

Why should models of similar price be weaker or stronger based on their keywords? Being a Henchman lets you use Soulstones and equip two upgrades. That by itself tends to give a bit of a boost and is also why a lot of stronger beaters are enforcers; with SS use and more upgrades models like Yasunori would be absolute nightmares. Let 8 SS models be as strong as 8 SS models; being a henchman simply means you get to invest more SS into your model, be it through upgrades or general use.

[Ludvig]

I don't get the premise at all. As others have said I think some of the top killers from day one were enforcers (Peacekeeper, Langston, Rail Golem). Station characteristics says nothing about role, versatility or power level. If anything I think early henchmen were more toolbox/support than killers even if the guild ones are often used as killers.

Power level is stone cost alone and versatility is really random, some models just are and some aren't. Some cheaper models are often even more versatile than their expensive buddies in faction. Plenty of minions are more expensive than henchmen these days.

[Adran]

I think there are some things that are deliberately "powered up" because they don't have access to soulstone use. The Maul trigger, Charge through and Locomotion would all be so much more powerful if you could use a stone to get the trigger, but being on enforcers they are much harder to keep going. 

[SAYNE]

Wow lot of responses. Thanks to everyone for their input. It does make sense that enforcers are mostly designed to be the more killy models, since access to SS use for defense would likely make them significantly stronger. 

How do you feel about some of these models approaching the level of meta "must picks" then? And why don't some factions feel as cookie cutter as others? As least the general forum consensus seems to find at least one model per faction everyone loves to hate. Is this a human issue or a game issue?

Thanks again for your incredibly quick responses!

 

[James Dyson]

I feel like that’s more of a player thing than a game thing.  Sure, every faction has a handful of models that are really solid for their cost.  I agree that some factions, especially Ten Thunders, have enough that it can feel like your list builds itself.

That doesn’t mean you need to do it, or that you are shooting yourself in the proverbial foot if you don’t take cookie-cutter lists.  In my experience, I’ve found that being familiar with your models can be just as important as their actual abilities when it comes to performance.

[Adran]

People that have "must pick "models are shooting themselves in the foot. None of the models in this game are must pick. Some are in strong contention for most games, but not must haves.

Frank was in almost all Guild lists for quite a while. Which meant all I needed to do was have a plan to take out Frank, and I was on the front foot. 

Likewise, people "learnt" that the Primordial magic was a great totem, and better than the Cherub and the poltegiest. But when the game changed, in particular, the reduced amount of end of game scoring from scheme markers, and it being much less likely that 1 scheme marker scores you 2 vp, the actual value of the magic dropped, but because people were in the mind set that it was better, they didn't try the other options, and you will still see it mentioned that the Cherub is rubbish, and the magic is much better stated as "fact" 

Of course there are some people out there that have huge success with a fixed list. The familiarity and understanding they have of the models in that list can make up for not having the right tool for the job. 

I play all factions, and don't find any of them cookie cutter, but I have always built slightly crazy lists. At least from some peoples theme views. 

 

 

[NulSec]

I think "must pick" is just another way to say: too valuable to leave in the case when compared to other options. I also don't think this is bad or wrong. It's a miniature game after all. I would also conclude that their are some models that are never taken, because they lack the value against other options in the faction or with Merc hiring options. I also think, and this is something that Travis, Keith, and Roger discussed on the Max Value Podcast, that some models are just inherently better when boosted by certain masters. Yaz is much better with McCabe (because he is pushed, nimble, and fast) than say Lynch. Yes, Yaz is gross, but he is at maximum grossness with McCabe. On the podcast specifically, they were saying that you could take plenty of beaters from other factions and give them nimble and fast with 10" of pushing and they would be considered comparable to Yaz.  

Edit: typo

[SAYNE]

@NulSec I think you make a great point with the value of synergies being stronger than the model itself in the case of Yas and McCabe. The reason I asked this specifically is because of complaints I kept hearing, but it is also true that the loudest aren't necessarily the majority. 

I was reevaluating my thoughts on the matter after listening to everybody, and I think one conclusion that I came to was the strength of a theme and keywords OR lack thereof. For example, in the case of say Arcanists, it's easy to say that Langston is strong, but yet doesn't make every list because of the strength and diversity of each specific master's theme. He wouldn't seem overbearing with Marcus or Kaeris because their strengths like in specific keywords. Not to say he couldn't benefit either of them, but he doesn't have the same fear factor as Ramos and now Ironsides I'd say. This diversity in themes and strength leads to Arcanists feeling spread thin at times, but also solidifies each model's theme. 

Now on the converse side of the spectrum, TT has a very homogenous theme. Sure most masters have keywords and themes, but they seem actually quite secondary, probably due to the fact that most masters are technically dual faction and Wyrd wants to have some form of cohesion to them. So the TT side of models are synergistic and useful in a broad generalist sort of way and this allows every master to bring a thematic choice (illuminated for Lynch, spirits and ancestors for Yan Lo) for flavor and distinction, and then have the options available to fill out whatever else they need. Turns out, a lot need a big beater since Yan Lo is the only one I think who thematically (and viably, poor whiskey golem) would bring one with him in the form of Izamu. 

So perhaps that has something to do with some of the "Staples" in some factions. The factions with the most thematic overlap will generally have the options to choose the All-Stars without making their Master choice defunct. Whereas something like a Sabertooth Cerberus might struggle to see play in a Ramos list, because why would you?

Thoughts and suggestions for a possible solution? Or if you don't believe it's a problem, do you think that there is a way to help others understand why it is not one?

 

[Ludvig]

3 hours ago, SAYNE said:

Wow lot of responses. Thanks to everyone for their input. It does make sense that enforcers are mostly designed to be the more killy models, since access to SS use for defense would likely make them significantly stronger. 

How do you feel about some of these models approaching the level of meta "must picks" then? And why don't some factions feel as cookie cutter as others? As least the general forum consensus seems to find at least one model per faction everyone loves to hate. Is this a human issue or a game issue?

Thanks again for your incredibly quick responses!

 

This is definitely a player thing. Must picks are always in your head.

After m2e released everyone kept saying I needed Francisco but I hated the model. After a loosing streak I caved in and got him. I've played him enough to think I can use him in a proper way and I've lost plenty of games with him in my list. I've also won plenty of games not using him so he is not needed to be successful. Despite that many players keep calling him OP, an auto take, broken etc. and suggest new players get him.  The problem is that both here and in AWP there tends to be a few very active users who might sometimes drown out the rest and many players don't feel the need to voice their opinions in these discussions.

There are also players who like to take the stuff that's considered underpowered and try to make it work, sometimes they find new combos that then quickly become the new "OP" and people tend to forget that they were considered shit and unplayable just a few months back.

[NulSec]

@SAYNE, good stuff...

I can't really comment on Langston - other than to say I'd love having a pushed nimble and fast one - because I don't face Arcanists enough in my local, but what you speak of is something that interests me in playing Arcanists as my next faction. 

As for thematic distinction it is personally lost on me. As a TT player, with an active imagination, I can conjure up any thematic fluff idea as to why certain models may work together for a particular match. Outside of experimentation I am just looking to build a crew that I think has the best chance of winning the encounter. I suppose you'd say I lean more competitive than thematic, so I don't personally see it as a problem, if the problem is thematic synergy. 

As for Yan Lo. I'd likely skip Izamu and take the Obsidian Statue.

[Ludvig]

@SAYNE

Arcanists have stronger synergies in their themes. Despite that Howard Langston, Joss and december acolytes tend to show up out of their theme because they're so strong.

In neverborn I think there are a lot of strong themes and synergies but Nekima and the doppleganger are very popular regardless of themes. Some models are just very rewarding to use.

[Tokapondora]

@SAYNEI definitely get what you're saying about TT veering towards being staple central over each master having, well, their own staples. I'd say it's really not an issue though. Where some masters and factions like intricate machines with each model making it spin harder, others simply prefer the straightforward "good models". Tends to get less flashy results, but does so slightly more consistently. This is very much a case of personal preference. Some masters and players like theme and combos, others do better without.

TT masters, being largely dual faction, will have to be compatible with generic models because both factions they dip into will have to gel with them. And in the current gamestate specifically they kind of need the slightly stronger generic options. Their masters tend to be weaker in just about all factions they dual in and in most of those factions are well on the bottom half of the power scale. Unless you want the entirety of TT to be scraping the bottom you'll need to give TT some good models to make up for their "okay" masters. With the influence of so many different factions you won't get a lot of overarching gameplay mechanics so they need to be good in a generic sense because you can't give each master their very own set of models. 

As for the forums (all forums, really) - they're naturally going to be something of an echo chamber. The people who post the most will have their opinion heard more often, conformation bias tends to run rampant, people look at the forums for strong things and thus never venture from those things as they keep parroting it.... In reality the problem areas are far more local-meta-bound and the preferred models player-bound.. I like Yasunori as much as the next guy but even thinking of alphastriking is punished hard in my meta. Some models that are hardly given a look here serve me brilliantly in actual games because they're perfectly specialized for whatever "niche" situation I encounter. I like and get a lot more out of certain models simply because their playstyle aligns better with mine. At least in TT most price ranges will have at least 3 models actively vying for attention - possibly because they're so detached in theme and synergy. Some models you'll hear more often because not taking terrain/schemes/matchups into account they're a bit better. Repeat that they're generically good often enough and people will subtly veer towards seeing that as the obvious and perhaps even only option.

[Bengt]

18 hours ago, Adran said:

I don't agree with your premise that a Minion ought to be worse than an enforcer. 

On the whole I would expect an 8ss Minion to be very slightly better than an 8 ss enforcer, because the enforcer has the advantage of hiring an upgrade, and they should both be better than an 8 SS henchman at face value because the henchman can hire 2 upgrades and can use soulstone. 

 

There are several victory conditions (collect the bounty is perhaps the most egregious example) and talents (i.e. things that go target <keyword> or minion model, or sometimes only minions at all) that seem to assume that minions are lower powered models (not for their cost, just in absolute power). So I think it's a problem that ~10 and higher stone (exact price point can be discussed) minions exists at all.

[Ludvig]

@Bengt

I'm not sure minions need to be worse just because those things exist. I am pretty confident that was not something the design team wanted eith m2e because illuminated, hanged and the dawn serpent came in wave 1 which was in beta at the same time as the base rules. So while designing the very rules minions where apparently allowed to be at the same level as henchmen and enforcers.

Colette is able to prompt any model of any station and prompt is extremely similar to Lucius' action buffing only minions (and as we both know it used to be even better than Lucius' action because it was a lot easier to cast). Ramos' toolkit can reactivate any construct and was in the same wave as Joss and Langston who are 10+ ss and hench vs enforcer respectively. 

If there was some design philosophy that minions should recieve more powerful buffs than higher stations these abilities are strangely designed and it seems weird to include overpowered minions from the start of the edition.

I think collect the bounty is more a way of trying to make people change up their tactics. Always taking Francisco or Sebastian might start to look risky when they give away a lot of points so people may need to think outside the box.

[-Loki-]

On 11/4/2017 at 1:46 AM, SAYNE said:

Wow lot of responses. Thanks to everyone for their input. It does make sense that enforcers are mostly designed to be the more killy models, since access to SS use for defense would likely make them significantly stronger. 

How do you feel about some of these models approaching the level of meta "must picks" then? And why don't some factions feel as cookie cutter as others? As least the general forum consensus seems to find at least one model per faction everyone loves to hate. Is this a human issue or a game issue?

Thanks again for your incredibly quick responses!

 

The thing is, Enforcers aren't the only station that have strong 'must picks'. For example, Illuminated are 7ss Minions that are far stronger than their 7ss implies. If you have Illuminated available to you, and you are looking for an 7ss model, it's very hard to pass them over.

[Bengt]

17 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@Bengt

I'm not sure minions need to be worse just because those things exist. I am pretty confident that was not something the design team wanted eith m2e because illuminated, hanged and the dawn serpent came in wave 1 which was in beta at the same time as the base rules. So while designing the very rules minions where apparently allowed to be at the same level as henchmen and enforcers.

Colette is able to prompt any model of any station and prompt is extremely similar to Lucius' action buffing only minions (and as we both know it used to be even better than Lucius' action because it was a lot easier to cast). Ramos' toolkit can reactivate any construct and was in the same wave as Joss and Langston who are 10+ ss and hench vs enforcer respectively. 

If there was some design philosophy that minions should recieve more powerful buffs than higher stations these abilities are strangely designed and it seems weird to include overpowered minions from the start of the edition.

I think collect the bounty is more a way of trying to make people change up their tactics. Always taking Francisco or Sebastian might start to look risky when they give away a lot of points so people may need to think outside the box.

I don't think Illuminated (or Acolytes, Rotten Belles and what have you) are relevant since they are supposedly not very powerful (them not being accurately costed is a completely different discussion ). But sure there are some early expensive minions in the Dawn Serpent and Hanged and I don't like them either. Colette have minion restrictions on Rehearsed and Disappearing Act (which while less flexible than Prompt can let you hand out more AP as it's a potentially an almost 30" place). I don't see why you bring up Brass Arachnid as most talents can target anything.

But my main point is: why are some talents (e.g. Disappearing Act, Black Flash) restricted to minions if it's not supposed to be some kind of power limit? If it's just a random whim that would be terrible design!

I can see a fluff argument for minion only summons as named unique models are more common in the higher stations; and Lucius as he is supposed to be a bully.

[Dogmantra]

1 hour ago, Bengt said:

But my main point is: why are some talents (e.g. Disappearing Act, Black Flash) restricted to minions if it's not supposed to be some kind of power limit? If it's just a random whim that would be terrible design!

I can see a fluff argument for minion only summons as named unique models are more common in the higher stations; and Lucius as he is supposed to be a bully.

Minion as a station is inherently weaker than Enforcer/Henchman because you can't take upgrades or use stones, so there's that to start. I think that the stations also mostly reflect how influential those characters are in the world. Minions, even the rare 1 named ones like The Sow, tend to have much less influence than Enforcers, and I think the minion only restrictions are intended as a way of influencing crew structure, like you said, Lucius is a bully who throws his weight around so it makes sense for him to have lots of underlings and to not surround himself with too many influential people who could challenge his power; this also has a game effect since not everyone has these buffs, so it should in theory increase diversity of hiring between masters. In a different game system that could be modelled by just giving you a set list of models to hire, but I think this softer method works well for Malifaux.

And also, I think the other thing to bear in mind is that expensive minions are an exception. Most minions cost between 4 and 7 stones, while Enforcers only start at 5 stones, and Henchmen at 7, and they go all the way up to 13 stones. The cap on power for minions in most factions is significantly lower, so it's often not so much that minions are inherently worse, just that minions cost less. I would also be surprised if models like The Dawn Serpent don't pay for their minionhood in some way. Being able to get Reactivated by McCabe is pretty great, so I feel like the min 2 damage probably helps balance that out.

[Ludvig]

Dogmantra explained it well. I also think it's about crew diversity, both between masters and schemes to make models have a niche. It's like how hunting party discouraged you from spamming cheap minions but you still need a minion on the table so maybe bring a survivable one. Collect the bounty can come up in the same tournament as reckoning and you would hopefully see different crews.

There are some other differences. I can't think of any guild minion that does 4 weak damage without hitting a ram for crit strike. Guild enforcers and henchmen outdamage minions significantly if we include debt and soulstones in the equation.

@Bengt

I brought up the brass arachnid since reactivation is one of the stronger abilities in the game that I figured should be for minions if there was a design intent of minions being worse but getting more powerful buffs.

We may be talking past each other. I was simply arguing against your statement that the game design seemed to assume minions were weak exemplified by collect the bounty. I can't argue against your feeling they should be weaker, I think that is a valid opinion. 

@Dogmantra

Well said (and I can't remove tagged users on my phone)

[Bengt]

4 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

We may be talking past each other. I was simply arguing against your statement that the game design seemed to assume minions were weak exemplified by collect the bounty. I can't argue against your feeling they should be weaker, I think that is a valid opinion. 

Another way to state my feelings are why would you add something like Collect the Bounty or minion restrictions if there isn't some cap on how good minions can be. Either minion is only an "upgrade yes/no?" thing and they can be as expensive as you want OR you get rid of victory/talents referencing station. I think the current state (though Collect the Bounty isn't that current ) is poor design.

[Ludvig]

They do seem capped at 9 or 10 ss so I think there is a limit. I doubt we will see a minion rivalling Yaz, Nekima or Archie in destructive power and minions summoning models is not anywhere the power level of the enforcers and henchmen who can summon. I also think minions generally don't have access to as many extra ap and attack stats of 7 to the same extent as higher stations. Everything has exceptions of course.

I find it hard to predict what hard-capping minions at max 7ss and making everyone above that an enforcer would do to improve the game. Thralls would be rarer and Lucius + McCabe sad. Ressers would probably throw a fit and ragequit the game if they couldn't summon hanged. I see a lot more enforcers than minions in collect the bounty already and Collodi would still be able to do it's trapper spam.

[4thstringer]

On 11/05/2017 at 5:05 AM, Bengt said:

Another way to state my feelings are why would you add something like Collect the Bounty or minion restrictions if there isn't some cap on how good minions can be. Either minion is only an "upgrade yes/no?" thing and they can be as expensive as you want OR you get rid of victory/talents referencing station. I think the current state (though Collect the Bounty isn't that current ) is poor design.

Collect the bounty even commented in the flavor text about how little a hanged was worth.  I don't think the designers had a problem with that.