Spam of “that damage cannot be reduced”

[Nikodemus]

I think Obsidian Statue (wave 5 TT construct) can up Ca damage. Burn's from Arcane Effigy I imagine.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

I think Obsidian Statue (wave 5 TT construct) can up Ca damage. Burn's from Arcane Effigy I imagine.

Exactly that. 

 

[Fazza92]

Yeah ,I think that Leveticus and Reva are on the same plane,but Reva as a cache too high,onestly.

If Levi has cache 1 I think that drop the cache of Reva to 2 can be a good choice.

Then I don’t know how increase the damage of Leveticus,but the we are a little OT.

[hydranixx]

To be fair that's not just Reva; all Wave 4 masters were Cache 4 and a lot of people reckon most of them should probably have a smaller Cache. Parker's 4 is fine, Titania would be sweet with 3 I think.

But Nellie, Sandeep, Zipp, Reva and Asami would all still be powerful and popular Masters even with a Cache of 2.

Also I thought the Death Touches All trigger doesn't get around Hard to Kill? Is there an FAQ for that?

[WWHSD]

16 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

But Nellie, Sandeep, Zipp, Reva and Asami would all still be powerful and popular Masters even with a Cache of 2.

Are there any summoners that have a 2 stone cache?

[Nikodemus]

9 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Are there any summoners that have a 2 stone cache?

Depending on how exactly you define a summoner: Levi & Hamelin (actually less than 2 cache).

Ton of summoners with cache 3.

[Ludvig]

6 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Also I thought the Death Touches All trigger doesn't get around Hard to Kill? Is there an FAQ for that?

No faq needed, nothing gets around hard to kill unless it specifically says it ignores hard to kill.

[hydranixx]

Ok so that's another thing that Leveticus is definitely better at - hunting Hard to Kill models. It really sucks losing Necropunks in one shot.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

32 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

It really sucks losing Necropunks in one shot.

Yeah, I have learned not to bring any against him.

[Jinn]

On 07/11/2017 at 10:46 AM, hydranixx said:

all Wave 4 masters were Cache 4

Asami is actually Cache 3.

[Fazza92]

On 7/11/2017 at 1:34 AM, WWHSD said:

Are there any summoners that have a 2 stone cache?

Reva summon  a candle discarding a card,she don’t need a suit.So she can be a very good master with cache 2?My opinion is yes.

Nellie has cache 4 beacause without her upgrade she do nothing,Sandeep e Zipp probably can run very good with cache 2.

[Ludvig]

Levi is cache 1 I think. He is a summoner with the right upgrade.

[Ludvig]

Dreamer pays 5ss to summon so if you subtract that from his cache I brlieve he is a negative cache summoner 

[WWHSD]

5 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

Sandeep e Zipp probably can run very good with cache 2.

That's not been my experience with Sandeep. Sandeep is so suit and card dependent that I've usually spent at least 2 soul stones in the first turn unless I get very lucky with my initial card draw. 

[WWHSD]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Dreamer pays 5ss to summon so if you subtract that from his cache I brlieve he is a negative cache summoner 

By that logic, Sandeep should only count as a 3 cache summoner.

[Ludvig]

59 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

By that logic, Sandeep should only count as a 3 cache summoner.

I'd be ok with that.

[Boomstick]

On 11/2/2017 at 12:09 PM, Fazza92 said:

Lol,if you need to kill a pieces with armor (or a master like Colette)it’s better attack with 3/4/5 that cannot be reduced or isbetter discard a corpse to do +1 damage ?

Is better pay 2 Ss to make damage non reducible like Reva or pay 2 Ss for trick shooting of Perdita?

 

the problems of these attacks are that in Malifaux there are some Masters that survive only with they damage reduction abilities(Colette,Molly for example,Hoffman need to buy an Upgrade for survive,),and now these masters became only a burden when opponent has a master like Reva,Misaki,Zipp,that can do a lot o damage without reduction with a very long range.

As someone who greatly enjoys the schemey sideways playstyle of Colette, I've been noticing this more and more being a problem. She more than most lives and dies by her defensive triggers (haven't played Molly or Hoffman, but I understand the similarities). I'm honestly surprised the recent concern that Colette's become weak is so focused on her Prompt cuddle, and not this issue. In her case, I wonder if it would make more sense for her triggers to be re-worded to the damage being prevented instead of reduced, but I'm not sure.
For the "may not be reduced" damage in general, I see that they were trying to give a few more options to counter some of the defensive abilities in the game, namely armor and incorporeal, but agree it's become more widespread than is healthy for the game as a whole. Masters having it makes the most sense, but for example with Reva, she's already using a Ca action, so why not just make it ignore armor, as it already ignores incorporeal? That's the kind of thing that makes me think the "may not be reduced" wording is becoming the "easy button" to make models a counter piece, but it ignores too many things to be as widespread as it is getting, in my opinion.

 

That said, I have yet to think of something that would make a happy medium between these defensive tricks and counters to them, so the arms race continues. I wish the game designers luck in finding it.

[Fazza92]

Yeah,I Wish that Game designers read this topic,in my city there are a lot of players disappointed by the fold of this game are taking...And Reva for all' Need a cuddle,is a master really "no brain".

[Thottbot]

i wish important models like colette that have low wds and survive by using their defensive triggers got "once per turn you can ignore 'ignore defensive trigger' ability"

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Thottbot said:

i wish important models like colette that have low wds and survive by using their defensive triggers got "once per turn you can ignore 'ignore defensive trigger' ability"

Ignoring triggers is extremely rare and should not be avoidable in my opinion because those models pay for that ability. The major problem is that she reduces damage and there are far too many models that can ignore the reduction part. General "cannot be reduced" is a major problem, either the triggers should use a keyword of their own like "ignores the damage" that very few models had or may not be reduced on attacks should probably just be "ignores armor".

[Freman]

Mark of Shez'uul is quite specific in what it ignores (armour, incorporeal, hard to wound, hard to kill) and costs a not inconsiderable 2SS. Just ignoring armour and incorporeal is probably 1SS by itself. "Cannot be reduced" which bypasses damage reduction triggers as well should be worth 2SS, so any model with it should be priced 2SS more than a comparable model without it.

To be frank "cannot be reduced" is too broad a descriptor, and it should (like Mark of Shez'uul) be described plainly as "ignores armour" and/or "ignores incorporeal". Things that ignore defensive triggers should be entirely separate, and if they must exist they should only exist on attack triggers for which the suit is not built in. Burning a stone or flipping/cheating the right card to ignore defensive triggers is, I think, acceptable.

[Pyrflamme]

In defense of Misaki's storm upgrade, it requires both LOS and within 12". If you're playing with Ht3 terrain (which most buildings can arguably be), you can hide stuff from her fairly effectively. In my previous meta, my Katanaka Sniper became somewhat infamous for railing weaker models off the board turn 1 until we started fitting in more terrain that could block LOS entirely (and even then, champ that he is, he still does it now and then with a good From The Shadows angle).

Also her trigger is only "built-in" if her soulstone pool is completely depleted. If you want to do that early game, you need to either spend it down fast or use Risk/Reward. Both options leave your Henchmen more at risk (Misaki being less so because of her to Df flips she gets along with the ), less ability to cycle cards with option one, and if she dies with Risk/Reward live, oops.

I ate a guy's crew at the last tourney I attended with The Storm (blasts killed a Tot, a damaged Depleted, and a Doppelganger on t1 after I was able to reach an already-activated model with a walk + Charge on Flank Deployment), but I think people need to be looking at their boards and thinking about how to not clump their models too much before evaluating The Storm.

[Nikodemus]

Another good rule to keep in mind is that models cannot be damaged by blasts if they don't see the model that's being blasted off of (ie. whoever Misaki is beating on). It can help a bit, depending on exact crew make up and terrain. I wouldn't say it's Fair & Balanced™, but it's good to keep its limits in mind nonetheless.

It's a bit silly, LoS permitting we're looking at ~29 inch bubble wherein three models can be damaged by single attack.

I will agree that when I'm hitting four models with a single storm it's on you, most of the time anyway.

[Ludvig]

A lot of strats require some bunching up and so do a lot of model combos. It's one thing to break LoS between deployment zones but most tables don't have tiny LiS blockers with a good ht value to break it from your own crew. At least not where I play.

Unless I am mistaken she can also use one of her own models to blast from so he could bring a ht3 model to ignore your carefully planned LoS-blocker.

[Nikodemus]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

A lot of strats require some bunching up and so do a lot of model combos. It's one thing to break LoS between deployment zones but most tables don't have tiny LiS blockers with a good ht value to break it from your own crew. At least not where I play.

Unless I am mistaken she can also use one of her own models to blast from so he could bring a ht3 model to ignore your carefully planned LoS-blocker.

The "place blasts 12'' away" thing has to be against an enemy model. I'd have to check the card but I'm pretty sure she can blast non-reducible blasts the old fashioned way from a friendly model though, but can't say that's ever come up yet.