Spam of “that damage cannot be reduced”

[Fazza92]

I play Malifaux by only a year more or less,

but I’ve see an enormous increment of “this damage cannot be reduced “,is it good for the game ?

There are a lot of model that pay his armor (or incorporeal,or other again),and that majority of these models,cannot see more the table.

I think,that isn’t good for the game all this spam,especially beacause a lot of damage that cannot be reduced are very strong...

Starting with the hated Reva,that fire at 21” with minimum 3 and ignore reduction and soul stone.

Zipp ,Misaki.

Without spoke of ignore Armor,when every faction (except gremlins that have “only “Zipp and Wong),have minimum 5/6 pieces that ignore armor...

what do you think about these mechanics of “I ignore all,and you die”?

[Ludvig]

I agree that it's really bothersome when it's so common because it devalues the abilities.

That being said, before it was common I basically only played McCabe since he was the only one in my arsenal who could ignore armour and incorp and my two most common matchups where Kirai and construct Arcanists. Not ignoring it sucked really bad against those matchups because every damned model had such a defense. If it's not going to be ignorable I think thr abilities need to be rarer or valued higher. It's kind of an arms race.

[Adran]

Its a strange set up. When there were very few models that ignored armour, or incorporial, the  people complained that they always saw the same few models. Makign it more common at least changes the models you see, but makes defensive tech very weak. Now we have started to see more and more un-ignorable armour and such like, so they are goign to be popular, and reduce what you see on other things. 

I have no idea where the happy medium is, but at least if the balance is dynamic it makes people change things around a  little

[Ludvig]

If ignoring it was rarer their lower stats from the first two books would make more sense since that makes you succeptible to control effects as a tradeoff. It's hard to roll back the changes now when there's a ton of high-stat models that also have a bunch of defensive rules.

Ignoring reductions would make sense it it was only available on models with meh damage like min 2. It's like the problem of Ca attacks without a  havi gway to good damage tracks. I think that kind of power should have been kept within some sort of reins so that no model was allowed to have too much damage in combination with certain features like ignoring defensive abilities. Maybe a few rsre exceptions sprinkled here and therr that broke the mold by a single point of damage. It could also be made availablr only on suited triggers on non-soulstone users to make it less reliable.

[WWHSD]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

It could also be made available only on suited triggers on non-soulstone users to make it less reliable.

Even if it was available as a trigger on soulstone users it would act as a resource drain and make players choose between avoiding mitigation or using a different trigger.

[Fazza92]

Yeah,it’s good in a faction to have pieces that ignore armor/incorporeal etc.

But are necessaries some limitations:

Peacekeeper:Mi6 3/4/6 damage with critical strike OR ignore armor 

That’s a good solutions and with a tome is good ignore armor 2+ of enemy,but it require a tome.So require to use brain(and have good tome in hand).

Reva with: Ca6 3/4/5 

 That damage cannot be reduced.

This is not good for game...

Beacause this not require a good manipulation of hand and soul stone...

Perdita is similar but with a 0 she decide if ignoring armor/incorporeal OR Cover.

Reva,Misaki,Zipp(and several other models )can ignore all...without no resources...and it is wrong in my personal opinion.

[SAYNE]

I agree in its annoyance although, like previously mentioned, it was a nightmare to deal with "overly defensive" lists that just turned the game into a slog. A somewhat nice thing about Malifaux is that turns 4 and 5 just kinda pass quickly when things are already dead, which helps bring the game to a conclusion. 

Suggestions for fixes are gonna be varied at best. I wish some models were more specified in what they counter. Like if incorporeal was ONLY countered by casts and casts would only counter incorporeal, it would improve the ability AND make the casters more all round useful. Then make the models that simply ignore all defensive tech, just ignore armor. They'd still be used in a similar capacity, while making armor slightly more reliable, or at least not quite the trap it is now. 

The triggers on non SS users sounds interesting at first, but I feel it won't make much of a difference or won't happen frequently enough to make a fair assessment. I feel the game has grown expansive enough that Wyrd might consider a version update, which is likely when all the stat lines would be rebalanced. I for one wish flight/incorporeal would be better if they gave plus flips to disengages, but meh. That's what I think. ;D

Also to be fair to Misaki, that is one of her saving graces, and one of the things that make her FEEL like an assassin and she's had it from the beginning of m2e IIRC.

Edited November 2, 2017 by SAYNE

[Kogan Style]

You are ignoring the fact that Reva has to pay 2ss to ignore damage reduction (and a further 2 for preventing SS use) AND she loses access to the trigger to increase the damage. 

 

 

[Nikodemus]

1 hour ago, SAYNE said:

Also to be fair to Misaki, that is one of her saving graces, and one of the things that make her FEEL like an assassin and she's had it from the beginning of m2e IIRC.

I'm guessing he was referring to Misaki's "Storm" upgrade from latest book 5. It lets her blasts be placed 12'' away and her blasts ignore any sort of damage reduction. Not really comparable to instakill trigger on her Bisento attack, which I'm guessing is what you're referring to.

[Kogan Style]

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

I'm guessing he was referring to Misaki's "Storm" upgrade from latest book 5. It lets her blasts be placed 12'' away and her blasts ignore any sort of damage reduction. Not really comparable to instakill trigger on her Bisento attack, which I'm guessing is what you're referring to.

disagree - you could see those blasts going off as pre-planted explosives, setting off when Misaki chooses to. The fact you dont have to connect the blasts could further add to that effect. 

Quite Assassin like (if not in the 'up close and personal' sense)

[Nikodemus]

1 minute ago, Kogan Style said:

disagree - you could see those blasts going off as pre-planted explosives, setting off when Misaki chooses to. The fact you dont have to connect the blasts could further add to that effect. 

Quite Assassin like (if not in the 'up close and personal' sense)

I was talking more in terms of their mechanics and how they work against various "reduce" defences. Bisento works against a single model, requiring two suits and even then being somewhat easy to ignore as discarding things is an option. Thunder with Storm upgrade works without any triggers, though its single suit trigger (often built-in) is helpful in getting those blasts, and this can damage multiple models with no comparable way to ignore the damage or even reduce it.

I'm a big fan of Stalking Misaki, but having played last few weeks with Storm Misaki I do wonder if it's maybe a tad over the top. Fluff wise I think it's entirely appropriate way for her to be doing her assassinating.

[Fazza92]

4 hours ago, Kogan Style said:

You are ignoring the fact that Reva has to pay 2ss to ignore damage reduction (and a further 2 for preventing SS use) AND she loses access to the trigger to increase the damage. 

 

 

Lol,if you need to kill a pieces with armor (or a master like Colette)it’s better attack with 3/4/5 that cannot be reduced or isbetter discard a corpse to do +1 damage ?

Is better pay 2 Ss to make damage non reducible like Reva or pay 2 Ss for trick shooting of Perdita?

 

the problems of these attacks are that in Malifaux there are some Masters that survive only with they damage reduction abilities(Colette,Molly for example,Hoffman need to buy an Upgrade for survive,),and now these masters became only a burden when opponent has a master like Reva,Misaki,Zipp,that can do a lot o damage without reduction with a very long range.

[SAYNE]

4 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

I'm guessing he was referring to Misaki's "Storm" upgrade from latest book 5. It lets her blasts be placed 12'' away and her blasts ignore any sort of damage reduction. Not really comparable to instakill trigger on her Bisento attack, which I'm guessing is what you're referring to.

Ah, my mistake. Never had Misaki and never had the opportunity to play against her. Thought she had it built in.

[Nikodemus]

She needs two crows and gets one built-in if she runs out of soulstones. It's unlikely but possible to not get that trigger off even once during a game.

[Kogan Style]

15 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

Lol,if you need to kill a pieces with armor (or a master like Colette)it’s better attack with 3/4/5 that cannot be reduced or isbetter discard a corpse to do +1 damage ?

Is better pay 2 Ss to make damage non reducible like Reva or pay 2 Ss for trick shooting of Perdita?

 

the problems of these attacks are that in Malifaux there are some Masters that survive only with they damage reduction abilities(Colette,Molly for example,Hoffman need to buy an Upgrade for survive,),and now these masters became only a burden when opponent has a master like Reva,Misaki,Zipp,that can do a lot o damage without reduction with a very long range.

In those instances, you still get to stone to prevent vs non-reducible Reva. Other options include standing on Corpse Markers so Reva cannot draw Line of Sight to them (would need a 50mm base though), block LoS between Corpse Marker and Colette, or use Colette's trigger to place within 6" and more than 3" away from a Corpse Marker. 

Misaki is harder to deal with since you have no defence vs Blasts, except hoping that you are more than 12" from the Thunder target. The damage is only 2 or 3 (preventable via SS), and the Thunder attack damage itself can be reduced. 

 

[Ludvig]

30 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

In those instances, you still get to stone to prevent vs non-reducible Reva. Other options include standing on Corpse Markers so Reva cannot draw Line of Sight to them (would need a 50mm base though), block LoS between Corpse Marker and Colette, or use Colette's trigger to place within 6" and more than 3" away from a Corpse Marker. 

Misaki is harder to deal with since you have no defence vs Blasts, except hoping that you are more than 12" from the Thunder target. The damage is only 2 or 3 (preventable via SS), and the Thunder attack damage itself can be reduced. 

 

If she also takes the general resser upgrade that doesn't let you soulstone prevent she becomes really dangerous to a lot of masters. Death defying still works for Collette since that makes her heal back the damage instead. Other masters aren't as lucky. A 40mm can block LoS to a corpse, it's trickier with the candles and zombies running around since you can't stand on them.

Defending against blasts can be done by blocking LoS so there's that. Not always very easy though.

[Fazza92]

Yeah but Reva has a charge range of 18 inch...her charge kill a master or henchmen without difficulties...

[SAYNE]

I feel like the issue with Reva and Zipp is not just their ability to ignore defenses. That happens and if any model we're to have it they SHOULD be masters, so in a power level sense, it makes... Sense. 

The difference between Misaki and Reva is not how dangerous they are to the opponent, but the safety Reva enjoys in comparison. With Misaki I could understand that I'm going to lose probably a big model or maybe two before she goes down. With Reva, she can sit back all day without repercussions and if I haven't built the right crew there is little I can do about it.

I'm not sure if it's a "She's too strong." Problem or if other masters are just too weak. On one hand it'd be much faster and easier for Wyrd to tone one down if the need arises (which I don't believe it has). On the other I feel it is much healthier for the game as a whole if some masters were simply more damaging. I really could (and should probably) open a whole thread about lower station models doing the job of higher stations, but I digress.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

Yeah but Reva has a charge range of 18 inch...her charge kill a master or henchmen without difficulties...

Well no. She can use a (0) action to push 5" charge 10 and has a 3" Ml, which is a little different to a Charge range of 18. I don't see people saying a sabertooth cerberus has a charge range of 15". They may say it has a threat range of 15", because it can leap and then charge. Her charging a model that is 18" away has removed one of her possible attacks. 

I also don't see many masters that have 9 or fewer wounds. (Which is about the amount a charging Reva is likely to do, 3 successful hits, each doing weak. Some times she'll get moderate or severe on negative flips, but sometimes she'll miss attacks as well). (And there are some, masters that low, but they also go as high as 14, ) yes, its very hard to stop her delivering that 9 damage to the target of her choice, but its very hard to stop several masters doing that much damage. 

 

 

[Kaos]

Well masters doing HTH damage aren't so bad as masters or pieces that can do such damage from range. Unless the master charge a isolate model, is basically trading himself for another model. And unless you're trading for another master, I don't know how much this is convenient. In other models unreducible damage come with a hefty ss price. On top of my mind there is Anna and Marlene and they don't do so much damage unless paired with other stuff, like a Obsidian statue. But then the price goes up sensibly. Surely a combination of leveticus/Marlene/Anna can erase any piece from the board, but is basically 30+ ss worth of pieces actions traded to kill what?

[Ludvig]

@SAYNE They toned down Leveticus a whilr back for exactly this: doing irresistable damage with little chance of retaliation. Viks do a lot more damage but they need to stay alive in the midst of the enemy crew. At least they used to, that new upgrade is likely to make them really annoying. After seing Reva I'm not sure why Levi was toned down actually, he wasn't much worse than she is now.

Most people seem to take guises which means you might be able to block her LoS. If she does her charge and bounce thing it could be worse. She does NOT enjoy being engaged to proper damage dealers though, that df doesn't go very far. Even if you can't block her LoS you should be able to block her charge lane with something, 50mm charges are tricky.

[Fazza92]

Leveticus ignore all but do 2/3/4 damage (Ca7),and has cache 1.

Reva ignore all (and more ,she can ignore soul stone),with more range ,with more damage with more cache.

[Ludvig]

7 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

Leveticus ignore all but do 2/3/4 damage (Ca7),and has cache 1.

Reva ignore all (and more ,she can ignore soul stone),with more range ,with more damage with more cache.

I believe she also chooses which stat she attacks. Levi gets his waifs for activation control but Reva gets corpse candles. Levi does have some insane survivability tricks that Reva does not so it's not just damage but a large part of his cuddle was damage related so it's a bit odd that she got to do nearly the exact same thing but better.

[Adran]

8 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

Leveticus ignore all but do 2/3/4 damage (Ca7),and has cache 1.

Reva ignore all (and more ,she can ignore soul stone),with more range ,with more damage with more cache.

You know Levi Has ignore soulstones as well right? He does it all with the attack on the base card, no need to buy any upgrades (but he does at least need to get the right suit). Reva doesn't ignore hard to wound, or Impossible to wound. Levi Can also upgrade that attack to do 1/2 wounds, which means that it can kill tougher targets than Reva (but thast a trigger so they get to at least soulstone heal). 

That doesn't make Reva any worse, and its obvious you really don't like her, but I at least like my arguments to be correct factually.  I also think it is possible to Up Levis damage track to at least 3/4/5 and let him do burning as well. 

 

 

 

[Ludvig]

Good points. How do you up his damage @Adran?