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Round Two Voting - Information

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2 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

We judge what we see and quality of photography certainly affects what we see. I don't consciously give better score for better photos, but it's certainly easier to rate something if I can properly see it at all. I too photo with my phone on my paint desk, but I'd like to think my photography hasn't lost me too many points on either of these two rounds (single mini vs diorama on the other hand... :lol:).

I can bet there's dozens of raised eye brows thinking "Coleridge? Mariner?" right about now. I forget which of these Iron Painter threads it was but someone made a point that references can easily be missed when there's as wide range of people, wide range of backgrounds, as in an online forum like this one.

I really liked your piece for what its worth. Nice clean painting with reference to theme without bashing me on the head with it. Some pieces, yours included probably suffered in the head to head format. You don't need to be bad to lose, just worse than your opponent in whatever arbitrary method the voting masses are using.

___

As for me I've really enjoyed Iron Painter so far and look forward to the remaining three rounds. It's not what I expected, but I can't fault it for that. Pretty stoked for round 3.

Thank you, you're very kind. 

I acknowledge the problem: people judge what they see and I don't think my photo does justice to the mini (I don't think many of the shading on the jacket etc. aren't visible, for instance) but I really have not many ways to improve this...

As for theme, yes: I knew I was taking a risk because literal interpretation (i.e. gallons of resin poured) can't be missed, while it is easy to miss the reference if it requires going outside the literal theme. It seems I lost my bet in this case :( - and yes the head to head format was not very rewarding.

Congrats on your piece (it is a very fine silurid) - you were very unlucky as your opponent came up with a huge diorama piece with lots of water, details and good painting. It is hard to compete against something like that...

I'm also looking forward to round 3!

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1 hour ago, domperignome said:

i will disagre with you on this one. if we dont get a good quality photo of your mini they we would only have your word that in reality its mindblowing quality painting.

on the secont part i feel you man... im having my ass handed to me realy hard and i dont know what ive got wrong

If you don't mind a little friendly C&C, I think the problem is it's a bit more difficult to pick out what's going on in your piece than in your opponent's. Your opponent's is simple - here's a crisply but not expertly painted Yan Lo (the brushwork is strong and clean but it's basically a basecoat, a shadow, and a highlight and the color selections make him look like one of Santa's elves), and he's raising a glob of water off the ground. The glob of water is very well done and looks very cool. The photo is big and it's the only thing in the photo. It's a strong gaming piece with a little extra, that cool glob of water.

On the other hand, you have a diorama, but I honestly have no idea what's going on in this diorama. There's a halfling or something in the sewers I guess and half a body is spilling out of a barrel? The drab, subdued colors make sense given the context but they aren't particularly appealing to the eye; some additional splatters of bright red blood would have added contrast and made the piece more interesting, and some glazed cool colors in the shadows like blues or purples may have helped as well. It all just sort of runs together and I can't really tell a coherent story with it in my mind.

To the positives, though, and there are plenty of them, you can tell that your technique is of higher quality than your opponent's - you blend paints, use colors in a more thoughtful way, and so on. I think your piece would have looked better photographed on a white background, as well, because the black has the unfortunate tendency to wash out the drab colors you used. As a result, I strongly suspect your piece looks much better in-person than it does in the form its presented in the voting form - a combination of small photo sizes (you probably should have only used 3 angles in your collage, with the main angle larger), the black background, etc.

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13 minutes ago, Hero of the Rev said:

Photo quality is always going to play a role in online competitions compared to competitions where all entries are in a display case and viewed in-person. I learn a bit more about photography, which is a skill previously impenetrable to me other than pointing and shooting, every time I paint a miniature and take photos of it. Phone cameras nowadays are generally more than sufficient to take high-quality pictures of miniatures. My photos during this competition have been taken on a Galaxy S8 and edited in either Snapseed on the phone or Photoshop on the computer. It just takes some learning what each option does; you won't get a photo that actually looks like what you see with your eye without some set-up and switching over to manual control and playing around with white balance, aperture opening, ISO, shutter speed, manual focus, and so on. I found this tutorial very helpful, but there are quite a large number of resources available on this topic: http://taleofpainters.blogspot.com/2016/01/tutorial-beginners-guide-to-miniature.html

I think your model looks like a very crisply painted gaming piece, though it is hard to tell because of the quality of the photograph. Your opponent's photograph was poor and I think their paint job looks a bit less messy compared to yours. However, credit to your opponent for using poured resin well and doing a good job sanding it down to make it clear. That is not the world's easiest technique and can very quickly result in a huge mess or ruined miniature. I don't claim to be anything close to a master on this, but you may want to read a bit on color theory as green and blue are not great complements; they tend to run together in a viewer's eye. I understood the Rime of the Ancient Mariner reference and voted for your miniature because of the neat brushwork, but I think you would have benefited in voting from a better photograph (as would your opponent!).

Thank you, I appreciate your comment. I do agree that unfortunately a lot of the quality of the piece was lost in the photo. I took mine on an iPhone 5S and did very minimal editing, beyond the simple "collage". :(

Indeed, pouring resin is what seemed to have made the difference, I didn't want to go as far since I plan to use the good old First Mate for play and I liked the simple concept of the ship planks with a few extra details (the hole, the rope, etc.)

Your comment about green/blue makes sense, I was perhaps a bit constrained since I followed my color scheme that I used for all my silurids/gupps with the green (for a matter of consistency) but I went for a "classical" mariner jacket (royal blue/gold).

Congrats to you for your piece...now onwards to Round 3, even if I'm going to be part of the ELIM crew!

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8 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Your comment about green/blue makes sense, I was perhaps a bit constrained since I followed my color scheme that I used for all my silurids/gupps with the green (for a matter of consistency) but I went for a "classical" mariner jacket (royal blue/gold).

Congrats to you for your piece...now onwards to Round 3, even if I'm going to be part of the ELIM crew!

Yeah, I think it's a very cool and well done tabletop piece and you'll get a lot of compliments of it when it's in play. The other thing I'll note colorwise is that because the cold greens and blues run together, and the bright, warm base contrasts with them so strongly, my eye was drawn towards the base rather than the model itself. And I'm far from an expert on how to use colors in a purposeful way (if I do so, it's usually because I stumbled into a combination that works), so I'm just telling you what came to mind as I looked at your model so you'll have it in mind moving forward.

And thank you!

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@Hero of the Rev thanks mate. i dont mind criticism, gues ive overcomlicated my work.

9 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Congrats to you for your piece...now onwards to Round 3, even if I'm going to be part of the ELIM crew!

luckyli we still have chance to cheat fate ;)

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2 hours ago, Joe Cool said:

I agree when you say, photo quality SHOULD not be a factor. The truth is, we are not judging miniatures, we are judging Photos of miniatures. As Nikodemus mentioned, I can only judge what I see.

When I take look at your work, I see a glossy surface of the paint. There are reflections of your light source visible. I assume, you did not highlight your miniature with paint. It is the light source, which does the highlighting. I may be wrong, but the photo does not give me the chance to judge this. So I can only assume a clean application of a basic color.

Onto your duel. Your opponent did not apply paint as clean as you did. Technical advantage for you. But his miniature is a dirty zombie, so his smearing of paint supports the general impression. There is a lot happening in his base which catches the eye and distracts from the unclean paintjob. Advantage for him. Themewise, he applied water, you did not. You give the impression of surrounding water, so you meet the theme. His work shows water, so the theme comparison goes to him.

In total, I think him being in front is okay. And yes, you suffer from the diorama vs. Single Miniature issue. The reflections on your mini can be reduced by indirect light (photobox). And I think, your mini needs an eyecatcher to improve. Blue and green do not provide much contrast.

Thanks for your very detailed feedback. Indeed, I agree that Blue and green do not provide much contrast, this was mentioned by @Hero of the Rev as well - I just kept the green scheme for the silurid's skin for consistency with my collection, and went for a "stereotypical" mariner's jacket look. My mistake, I guess.

I 100% agree with you that the photo unfortunately is not very good, to the point of altering perception. In fact, the miniature is not glossy at all, and I did do some highliting (I usually do base, wash, drybrush, then manually highlight the most evident parts) but it doesn't show at all in the photo. So in fact the light source (the lamp is quite low on the table to provide good lighting while I paint) canceled my painted highlighting :(

I can see my opponent being in front, I do not dispute that, just 80-20 is harsh (but I realize this is even worse for some of the other matchups). Also, it is true that, as you say, his base catches the eye and distracts from the unclean paintjob - so the only thing I feel like mentioning is that we then end up judging the base, and completely ignoring the actual mini, which is a bit like judging a book by its cover. 

Other than this, thanks again, the feedback was very helpful!

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I voted for the models yesterday, just to feel a bit involved. I think some entries were fantastic, some didn't really hit the them at least for me and some were people painting models they wanted to play. As far as I see, everything is good. This is a challenge challenging painters on different levels and some of them entered for motivation, some to win. So the effort they're putting is different and this is fine.

There are some single models I thought were better than dioramas or some artistic solutions I liked. There are some models making me scratch my heart about the theme, a guy sitting in a front of a lake or a pond doesn't really relate to the panicked water everywhere! of the theme. But I'm a way they were well paired, meaning I didn't find both entries really related so I went with what I thought was the best technical excecution. 

I think, considering the rules of the contest, what I've seen so far is fine as well as the way the participants choose to approach it and I understand both sides point of view, who want to paint to play and who wants to aim to higher standards or put more effort on their work.

I can suggest maybe to ask for a different contest next time, where pieces need to be strictly paint to play and need to sit in the base included, without excessive overhanging. But then would be a different contest, not iron painter but something different (I can suggest "paint to play" as name, sounds right).

I think this contest is supposed to do what is exactly expected and also themes aren't easy and aren't really related to gaming with your models.

Keep it up and have fun, don't overthink it.

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22 hours ago, Hero of the Rev said:

I think your model looks like a very crisply painted gaming piece, though it is hard to tell because of the quality of the photograph. Your opponent's photograph was poor and I think their paint job looks a bit less messy compared to yours. However, credit to your opponent for using poured resin well and doing a good job sanding it down to make it clear. That is not the world's easiest technique and can very quickly result in a huge mess or ruined miniature. I don't claim to be anything close to a master on this, but you may want to read a bit on color theory as green and blue are not great complements; they tend to run together in a viewer's eye. I understood the Rime of the Ancient Mariner reference and voted for your miniature because of the neat brushwork, but I think you would have benefited in voting from a better photograph (as would your opponent!).

thanks for the feedback on my piece :)

It is true that my paintjob is not the best and I think @edopersichetti did a cleaner modell paintwise. 

I have much to learn with both painting and photographing and this is a good oportunity to gain some experince.

As my opponent I want ot use this Drowned as a gaming piece, this is why I stick to the standard 30mm base with him

for the resin part :) I only used a shiny plastic casing around the miniature and it gave this clear effect, didn't need to sand it down.

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Hopefully , I can cheat fate. I was briefly  in the lead and then he had a surge. I would   catch up and then he pull away. It's been a nailbiter  for me. I just need a surge of 15 votes. :P

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22 minutes ago, Demonn Agram said:

golds and silvers, is anyone getting anxious about now? :D

How come the week between rounds is longer than the 2 weeks of painting? 

Anyone else playing guess the theme to keep themselves occupied?

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1 hour ago, glamage said:

How come the week between rounds is longer than the 2 weeks of painting? 

Anyone else playing guess the theme to keep themselves occupied?

Hmm, we've had Water, Light (which is close to an element, could be seen as Fire).

So the next elements are:

Air : In the air tonight, We lift you up where you belong, ...

Earth: Walled up in the earth, Dwellers below, ...

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6 hours ago, Demonn Agram said:

golds and silvers, is anyone getting anxious about now? :D

I’m in Bronze and I’m anxious for gold and silver scores

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6 hours ago, Demonn Agram said:

golds and silvers, is anyone getting anxious about now? :D

If there's only one thing i'm anxious about, is knowing what will be the next round theme! For the result of this round, whatever the outcome is, this is a really cool competition to be part of :D

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Personally, I am glad to be out of the contest part of this event and the ELIM part. Some of those polls were brutal. Really should be a cut off point for some of those. I mean, 1 vote versus 139, really? We didn't know the winner already? I am just glad to be done with that and just enjoy the contest. Best of luck to the winners and my opponent, you did a fine job. 

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