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Round Two Voting - Information

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It´s quite the opposite for me. From the first time i´ve read about this contest i thought it was about painting for contest and painting to get some of your grey models done. After round one i realized it´s just about dioramas which is a big turn down for me cause i don´t like to produce dioramas. These are mediocre dust collectors and not worth the work i put in.

A diorama with low painting standard for me is still far behind a beautiful painted mini. Not voting on technical skill is foolish and bad attitude against other contestants in my opinion.

I wouldn´t go as much and talk about unfairness but the rules need some clarification like "this contest is for dioramas". If you look at many other painting contest they have categories for single miniatures or diorama and that´s for a reason!

 

 

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Maulwurfmann, I think you’re a bit off the mark. iP is a painting contest with a heavy influence in theme, so there has to be some narrative - in fact, this is a staple of Iron Painter comps from years gone by; 2 weeks to produce a piece based on a theme. How you tell that narrative is entirely up to you. Some people can do it with one miniature (in a teacup, for example; simple base idea, but very effective). While others have a more complex narrative and need more than one mini and a more detailed base.

you are also missing the point that having three judging categories is a big leveller. An average, or quickly painted miniature with a good narrative is just as good as a well painted miniature with no theme. 

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I remember that Iron Painter was always a free for all and never had categories before last year when tiers were introduced (incidentally when prizes entered the equation).

I've also wanted to point out again that technical skill isn't only about painting skill.
I myself came into this contest to push myself and become an overall better painter.

I'm too tired, so I'm throwing a glove in for tonight.

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Whilst i am a first time entrant, I don't feel like this competition is 'For dioramas'. 

'Water water everywhere' certainly feels like it calls for a diorama to get the effect across. Water effects don't work all that well on a small scale.

That does not mean that the next rounds themes will necessarily call for a diorama. If you can create a feeling of the theme with a single miniature on a standard base then a diorama is not needed. 

I plan to take each theme on it's merits. If I feel it needs a diorama to get the point across them okay. If not then I won't. 

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10 minutes ago, shanerozzell said:

Maulwurfmann, I think you’re a bit off the mark. iP is a painting contest with a heavy influence in theme, so there has to be some narrative - in fact, this is a staple of Iron Painter comps from years gone by; 2 weeks to produce a piece based on a theme. How you tell that narrative is entirely up to you. Some people can do it with one miniature (in a teacup, for example; simple base idea, but very effective). While others have a more complex narrative and need more than one mini and a more detailed base.

you are also missing the point that having three judging categories is a big leveller. An average, or quickly painted miniature with a good narrative is just as good as a well painted miniature with no theme. 

It´s my first IP and if the description would have been painting dioramas i would not have taken part in it in the first place. The description painting miniatures with a "theme" is to loose. What if the theme would be "barbarian"? Simply everyone would paint a barbarian miniature. There´s simply no big story to tell. Nearly everything could be a theme if you stretch it wide enough.

So yes i missed that information in the first place. But instead of whining i just enterd with the miniatures i thought would fit in the best.

But complaining about people who have a problem with the contest just hits a nerve. How can you expect to evolve as a contest if you complain about critics?

 

 

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I don’t want to get too heavily into the discussion about figure vs. diorama, but I wanted to point out that you can check out the entries from the previous two years in the gallery. If you do, you’ll see that premise that ‘dioramas’ are much favored is not completely true. In 2015 Curtis won the contest, and most of the rounds he did so with just one figure and a fairly simple base that were just expertly painted. Like this one.

 

Last year’s winner Ringil made entries with only one figure in four of the five rounds, albeit with some beautifully crafted bases. They were just well thought-out and featured some fantastic painting. 

I think it is to underestimate the judges (both the ‘pros’ and fellow forum members) to suggest that they are so dazzled by big elaborate dioramas that they overlook other aspects of the piece. :) 

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5 hours ago, Whirler said:

I don’t want to get too heavily into the discussion about figure vs. diorama, but I wanted to point out that you can check out the entries from the previous two years in the gallery. If you do, you’ll see that premise that ‘dioramas’ are much favored is not completely true. In 2015 Curtis won the contest, and most of the rounds he did so with just one figure and a fairly simple base that were just expertly painted. Like this one.

Last year’s winner Ringil made entries with only one figure in four of the five rounds, albeit with some beautifully crafted bases. They were just well thought-out and featured some fantastic painting. 

I think it is to underestimate the judges (both the ‘pros’ and fellow forum members) to suggest that they are so dazzled by big elaborate dioramas that they overlook other aspects of the piece. :) 

So i could have taken a look...but didn´t. Lets quote the hitchhiker:

“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

But instead of clarify that for further painting contest (obviously no changes to the running contest that would be ridicioulus) we´ll have some complaints every time.

In my eyes the picture you showed me is still a diorama with a single miniature. It´s on socket and clearly meant to display. Or do you think this miniature will ever hit the gaming table?

I don´t underestimate the judges but the judging community, especially Linus pointed out he wouldn´t vote for technical skill.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Maulwurfmann said:

 

In my eyes the picture you showed me is still a diorama with a single miniature. It´s on socket and clearly meant to display. Or do you think this miniature will ever hit the gaming table?

 

 

 

Putting something on a  scenic base =/= diorama. 

Plus you don't have only two options: diorama or a gaming base :) seventhirtyseven for example did both with his ""Union Workshop": he did it so the mini is detachable. And no one looked down upon that. His piece took 1st place with a massive gap between it and the second in points.

 

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Yesterday i just realized how much a good photo and good angle matter. I don't mean they "bad", no, they are truly great, but i bet with mediocre or bad photos they would qualify for silver top. Also good photos and a bit of editing could easily push some mediocre works into silver.

I know, it's online contest and there is nothing you could do with it, just want to share my priceless opinion :D

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Following the discussion, I think we should take a look at the judging guidelines again:

Theme (0 to 10 points) – Does the submission meet the current Round’s theme? How closely does it match that theme?

Dioramas may find it easier to meet the theme. But Single Miniatures can also fully score here. Especially round one theme OSL does not require a diorama as traditionally the light source is on the mini itself. If Dioramas have an advantage here depends on the theme. 

Technical Skill (0 to 10 points) – What is the overall quality of the painting? What is the difficulty of the painting?

The word "painting" clearly says, it is not about diorama building, but about painting skill. Well painted single miniatures should fully score here while well built dioramas which lack painting quality will drop some points here.

Aesthetic (0 to 5 points) – How does the mini look, overall?

This is the aspect, where dioramas can shine. However, the wording is "mini" and not "submission". So Single Minis with a strong athmosphere or color choice can take all 5 points as well.

Putting everything together, well painted single miniatures should come out ahead of dioramas with painting deficits. They can take full 25 points, while the diorama can not (unless it is well painted). Dioramas may find it easier to match criterium 3 but should not be more than 2 - 3 points in front. And that is a lot on a scale of 1 - 5.

When I take a look at the actual votes, I do not see these rules applied.

I still like to see that people continue to create dioramas. It may be a way to get an additional 2 - 3 points but does not compensate lack of technical painting skill fully.

And by the way, the contest is called Iron Painter !

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36 minutes ago, Joe Cool said:

Following the discussion, I think we should take a look at the judging guidelines again:

...

Putting everything together, well painted single miniatures should come out ahead of dioramas with painting deficits. They can take full 25 points, while the diorama can not (unless it is well painted). Dioramas may find it easier to match criterium 3 but should not be more than 2 - 3 points in front. And that is a lot on a scale of 1 - 5.

When I take a look at the actual votes, I do not see these rules applied.

This is pretty much 100% the criteria I used when judging this round, and I (obviously) agree it should be the criteria used for judging. Dioramas don't automatically score better, unless they use the fact they're a diorama to better represent the theme (possible, but not guaranteed) or give a better overall impression (quite likely).

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1 hour ago, DarthSlider said:

Yesterday i just realized how much a good photo and good angle matter. I don't mean they "bad", no, they are truly great, but i bet with mediocre or bad photos they would qualify for silver top. Also good photos and a bit of editing could easily push some mediocre works into silver.

Photography really can make your model shine, or it can destroy it. I had that problem in round one. My painting mentor directed me to some photography tutorials that everyone should have a look at. I'm still struggling with photography myself , but it has made a big difference between rounds one and two for me. Here are a few links:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AFN77P-SN60

http://massivevoodoo.blogspot.com/2013/09/miniature-photography.html?m=1

https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Debunking_the_Myths_of_Miniature_Photography

There are even more great tips or there for sure. I hope this is useful :)

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1 hour ago, Infern0 said:

Putting something on a  scenic base =/= diorama. 

Plus you don't have only two options: diorama or a gaming base :) seventhirtyseven for example did both with his ""Union Workshop": he did it so the mini is detachable. And no one looked down upon that. His piece took 1st place with a massive gap between it and the second in points.

 

So we have to argue about the definition of diorama?

Here´s the definition from wiki:

The word diorama /ˌdəˈrɑːmə/ can either refer to a 19th-century mobile theatre device, or, in modern usage, a three-dimensional full-size or miniature model, sometimes enclosed in a glass showcase for a museum. Dioramas are often built by hobbyists as part of related hobbies such as military vehicle modeling, miniature figure modeling, or aircraft modeling.[citation needed]

In that case yes it is a diorama.

Most of the time a detachable miniature will destroy the immersion of the scene.

I fully agree with joe cool about the judging.

Apart from this i´m tired of defending my point of view. Everytime i have to deal with that discussion or the contest i´m filled with anger. Since my spare time is too important to be annoyed and painting should be fun and relaxing i´m quitting the competition. 

 

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10 hours ago, Maulwurfmann said:

But complaining about people who have a problem with the contest just hits a nerve. How can you expect to evolve as a contest if you complain about critics?

 

 

I wan’t complaining about your remarks at all, I was answering them.

i have been in painting hobby a very long time and as the owner and editor of Figure Painter Magazine and owner of Initiative Magazine I get to see a lot of miniatures and we’re involved with painting competitions all over the world. The one thing I can be sure of is that it’s not a true painting comp, if someone doesn’t complain about the judges and the rules :) I took on the role knowing this and don’t mind answering questions or reading poeople opinions about it at all.

The one thing competitions of all kinds have in common, is that the best entries win. With art based comps, this gets very messy because art is very subjective, hence we have criteria that set out a formula for judging. This also works well for the entrants because if you plan right and play to your strengths, you can do well. If your not the best painter in the world, then work on theme and easthetic. 

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In this case the complaint was related to Linus Mcmold not from you.

I appreciate your work and i don´t complain about the official judges (once again). I´m with you when you say it´s very subjective but there are criterias where you can judge on technical skill and this should apply also for a community judging and not "oh look i like purple as a color..."

Like i already said a more detailled description of the competition would have prevented that discussion in the first place.

 

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46 minutes ago, Maulwurfmann said:

So we have to argue about the definition of diorama?

Here´s the definition from wiki:

The word diorama /ˌdəˈrɑːmə/ can either refer to a 19th-century mobile theatre device, or, in modern usage, a three-dimensional full-size or miniature model, sometimes enclosed in a glass showcase for a museum. Dioramas are often built by hobbyists as part of related hobbies such as military vehicle modeling, miniature figure modeling, or aircraft modeling.[citation needed]

In that case yes it is a diorama.

Most of the time a detachable miniature will destroy the immersion of the scene.

I fully agree with joe cool about the judging.

Apart from this i´m tired of defending my point of view. Everytime i have to deal with that discussion or the contest i´m filled with anger. Since my spare time is too important to be annoyed and painting should be fun and relaxing i´m quitting the competition. 

 

Isn't by that logic any entry  a diorama, as it fits the description? "A three dimensional miniature model." If it breaks the immersion or not is based on the skill level.

I'm sorry if this discussion  makes you angry. You shared your POV, others share theirs, and their POVs shouldn't make you "filled with anger", if they contradict each other :) No one is trying to be aggressive towards you, and I'm sure no one is trying to get on your nerves.

I wish people wouldn't quit the competition, if anything, maybe it's a good idea to try and win with the way you want to paint for the contest!

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1 hour ago, Maulwurfmann said:

Apart from this i´m tired of defending my point of view. Everytime i have to deal with that discussion or the contest i´m filled with anger. Since my spare time is too important to be annoyed and painting should be fun and relaxing i´m quitting the competition. 

 

I really hope you don't quit, the competition will be lessened by your absence and when the dust has settled I think you might regret having not given the comp a chance. We all have differing points of view, but one thing that brings us all together for an event like this, is we all love painting our miniatures for one reason or another. bear that in mind before you make your decision, but I really hope you carry it on:)

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@Maulwurfmann You seem to have your own fixed ideas of what you want to think already. That's fine, no need to get agitated over other's opinions in that case. Nobody is attacking you, so there's no need to get upset and defensive.

All they are doing is sharing their perspective, which you do not need to agree with. 

I too was a little disappointed with the diorama thing as I don't have the time and energy to keep this up, until @Whirler gave some perspective. Of course, I have a slightly different idea of diorama - a scene with a narrative - and whirler showed what I consider a display base. To me it's not the same as it's a lot less time consuming to craft a nice display on a 50mm base than a full scenic diorama. So whether you call both dioramas or not, it doesn't change the fact for me that one is definitely more within my means!

Anyway, try to enjoy the process more and just keep submitting regardless. I'm here for the raffle and to push my skills. The complex stuff I leave it to the silver and gold tiers to wow me and show me the possibilities. 

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@shanerozzell All this diorama vs single mini mater most in 1st round and IMHO every work should be judged by pro judges in round 1, and community voting for bronze later. Yes, i knew it's a lot of work for you, but this would make whole much fair overall.

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2 minutes ago, DarthSlider said:

@shanerozzell All this diorama vs single mini mater most in 1st round and IMHO every work should be judged by pro judges in round 1, and community voting for bronze later. Yes, i knew it's a lot of work for you, but this would make whole much fair overall.

A few of us did vote in round one. :)

I know what your sentiment is though. There are pro's and cons for this. Last year, it was all on us, but one thing I thought that missed out on was the community engagement and it kind of became a 'them' and 'us' situation. With everyone involved, I think it gives a more community feel to the comp. 

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8 minutes ago, shanerozzell said:

A few of us did vote in round one. :)

I know what your sentiment is though. There are pro's and cons for this. Last year, it was all on us, but one thing I thought that missed out on was the community engagement and it kind of became a 'them' and 'us' situation. With everyone involved, I think it gives a more community feel to the comp. 

What if the models are judged by both the judges and the community. The judges could do the three category 25 points and the community could give a 1-5 point vote, making it possible to earn up to 30 points, or something like that. That way everyone is included and models are getting the fairest judging. Also, it would be far less taxing on the community. The round one voting was rough, it took me days to finish. Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoyed looking at every piece of art submitted.

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1 minute ago, Zanna said:

What if the models are judged by both the judges and the community. The judges could do the three category 25 points and the community could give a 1-5 point vote, making it possible to earn up to 30 points, or something like that. That way everyone is included and models are getting the fairest judging. Also, it would be far less taxing on the community. The round one voting was rough, it took me days to finish. Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoyed looking at every piece of art submitted.

that's a good idea, maybe for next year it can be implemented. suddenly changing things during this iteration of the comp will only add to the confusion I think, not to mention be unfair to those who have already been judged.

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@shanerozzell In my experience painting for community voting and painting for judges have quite different aproach. Community loves "bright" works, it's more about impression then technique. Pro judges are mostly care about technique and little details most of community voters even didn't notice (like all this small shades, reflections, etc.).

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4 hours ago, DarthSlider said:

Yesterday i just realized how much a good photo and good angle matter. I don't mean they "bad", no, they are truly great, but i bet with mediocre or bad photos they would qualify for silver top. Also good photos and a bit of editing could easily push some mediocre works into silver.

I know, it's online contest and there is nothing you could do with it, just want to share my priceless opinion :D

I think this is what is letting me down in polls, besides a number of factors in the creation that I wasn't happy with,  my photography skills were just sub par, over exposed, poor background, etc. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with the number of people who have voted for me, and the fact that it seems my opponent @Kilvo and I are quite closely matched (makes for a tense competition) but his photography is clear and his painting is great. The combo just edges it for him. And that's cool. I've really learnt a lot on how to improve my camera work. Just really wish I'd done so before now! 

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