Lynch Cheating Bastard and Red Joker

[whodares]

Does the Red Joker count as a mask when it comes to revealing masks for the effect of Cheating Bastard?

We've been playing it as not counting due to it not being an actual mask, but I'd like to be certain before I head off into a tourney with it.

My reasoning for not counting is that the Red Joker only counts as any suit when you actually play it. While it's sitting in your hand, it's not being played.

[Adran]

I'd agree with your reasoning

"When the Red Joker is flipped or played, the owning player must immediately announce which suit the Red Joker will be during the Action."

Page 13. 

As far as I can tell cheating bastard does not flip or play the card, it just reveals cards from your hand so the suit selection does not occur. 

[MrDeathTrout]

That's the conclusion I came to as well.

[Erik1978]

I would definitely rule it's not a mask.

Actually I would also rule it not being a mask, when flipped for Lynch's "Pay Up".  Perhaps more of a grey area.

It may be able to count as a mask but it IS not a mask so I wouldn't say it goes into the Players hand.

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

I would definitely rule it's not a mask.

Actually I would also rule it not being a mask, when flipped for Lynch's "Pay Up".  Perhaps more of a grey area.

It may be able to count as a mask but it IS not a mask so I wouldn't say it goes into the Players hand.

But when you flip it from the deck you have to immediately announce its suit. So you can choose for it to be a mask at that time so you can draw it from Pay up (It flips the card, which means you have to pick a suit for the red joker) becasue from then until the end of the action it is a mask card

[MrDeathTrout]

8 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

Actually I would also rule it not being a mask, when flipped for Lynch's "Pay Up".  Perhaps more of a grey area.

It may be able to count as a mask but it IS not a mask so I wouldn't say it goes into the Players hand.

I disagree with this.  The rule Adran sited says you declare a suit when the red joker is flipped and Pay Up does say you flip the cards.

[Erik1978]

I disagree.

The red joker can be USED as any suit but is not itself a mask. You are allowed to pick up a specific suit which the red joker isn't. That's how I see it. 

If you are correct, I could pick up the red joker because it's temporarily a mask, then use it as a Ram in my next flip. That just taste wrong to me. 

[MrDeathTrout]

2 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

I disagree.

The red joker can be USED as any suit but is not itself a mask. You are allowed to pick up a specific suit which the red joker isn't. That's how I see it. 

If you are correct, I could pick up the red joker because it's temporarily a mask, then use it as a Ram in my next flip. That just taste wrong to me. 

I would agree if the the rule said to add that suit to the duel total or something similar, but is says  "...announce which suit the Red Joker will be during the Action."  It says "will be", not "use as".

[Adran]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

"When the Red Joker is flipped or played, the owning player must immediately announce which suit the Red Joker will be during the Action."

Page 13. 

 

3 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

I disagree.

The red joker can be USED as any suit but is not itself a mask. You are allowed to pick up a specific suit which the red joker isn't. That's how I see it. 

If you are correct, I could pick up the red joker because it's temporarily a mask, then use it as a Ram in my next flip. That just taste wrong to me. 

One of these posts quotes the rules on using the joker. For the purpose of the action it is in it is only 1 suit which you chose when you flip or play it. From that point on until the end of the action it is only a 14 , so it meets all the criteria for drawing it. Next action that it is flipped or played on it can be a different suit. But it will be just the one suit for that action. 

[Adran]

double post- ignore

[Erik1978]

I see your point.

Lynch's Pay Up says "This model draws all  cards flipped..." I guess the argument could be made that the red joker IS a  just like the normal ones but it's a fishy one. I would love to get a Wyrd person to answer this one.

[Erik1978]

I guess the errata about the red joker backs up your point. 

"For all game purposes, the suit chosen by the player counts as having been printed on the card."

This, and the new cool hungering darkness makes Lynch even more cool.

[MrDeathTrout]

11 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

I guess the errata about the red joker backs up your point. 

"For all game purposes, the suit chosen by the player counts as having been printed on the card."

This, and the new cool hungering darkness makes Lynch even more cool.

...and maybe someday someone will actually use Pay Up instead of Mulligan. 

 

[Erik1978]

I did once! 0 cards in hand and 1 infected enemy!

[MrDeathTrout]

8 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

I did once! 0 cards in hand and 1 infected enemy!

I used it once too.  Nothing lower than an 11 in my hand, so...