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Big Brain Brin - A hidden gem?

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3 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

As reckless seems a general problem what would you recommend to replace it?

If we want them to keep it I think they nees to go down to ca5 and a different suit for heal.

If we want to replace reckless then I dont know what to do to not make them bad.

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1 minute ago, trikk said:

If we want them to keep it I think they nees to go down to ca5 and a different suit for heal.

If we want to replace reckless then I dont know what to do to not make them bad.

What i could think of is a flip. Maybe a 4+ or something. Not as a 0-Action, but as an ability. You could still use the Bayou Two Card ability to improve your chances, but there would be a chance to fail.

I don`t think it is necessary, because GG18 plays very different than GG17 and reckless has not that much of an impact at the moment, but we will see.

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46 minutes ago, Lokibri said:

What i could think of is a flip. Maybe a 4+ or something. Not as a 0-Action, but as an ability. You could still use the Bayou Two Card ability to improve your chances, but there would be a chance to fail.

I don`t think it is necessary, because GG18 plays very different than GG17 and reckless has not that much of an impact at the moment, but we will see.

It does. Extra AP for walk, interact, smack is a gold.

 

49 minutes ago, trikk said:

If we want them to keep it I think they nees to go down to ca5 and a different suit for heal.

If we want to replace reckless then I dont know what to do to not make them bad.

Dang it... It's banana situation with this Reckless thing... :D

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1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

It does. Extra AP for walk, interact, smack is a gold.

 

Dang it... It's banana situation with this Reckless thing... :D

As in if I say "just remove reckless" then I`ll get smacked in the head and called a Gremlin hater. I think lowering the Ca to 5 would make them less reliable damage-dealers and that could somehow push them out of the "this is sooo goooood" slot so things like Wrestlers and other 5SS models could see play.

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4 hours ago, trikk said:

I have a genuine question. Please don`t take it as an offense, because that`s not my intention. Did you play in international or big tournaments? Somer was probably in the top 3-4 masters of GG17 (probably after Hamelin and Sandeep). I had a nice eye opener when I went to the UK Nationals and ITC. Of course if you`re a rubbish player you`re going to get stomped even when playing a potent master but the activation control combined with damage and card draw was pretty bonkers. He lost a bit of steam in GG18 because the strategies and schemes don`t promote outactivation as much but I still think he`s a lot closer to the top than to the middle.

As for turns. The issue with tournaments is: 1) chasing points is harder than earning them and 2) there`s a higher chance we`ll end up turn 4 than turn 6 most of the time which puts a faction that has 125% steam early and 75% late is a big advantage.

Not offensive at all. It is a fair question. I have not played in international tournaments or that many Big Tournaments but I have followed them intently on these boards and watched more than a few at GenCon. Sure Som'er may be appearing near the top of some of those events (definitely not all of them and none that I can recall in first place) but I would counter with "what is the quality of the player piloting him". The UK scene in particular has has had some of their very top tier players (guys often described as being able to take what ever and make a showing of it) do well with him. How much of the top showing with Som'er is due to just their skill with the game?

I am not saying that he isn't the factions best competitive option, hell I have been singing his praises since I started playing him way back in the early days of 1st edition, but he does have significant and exploitable weaknesses. This is exacerbated when a player knows what to focus on (why most competitive players have transitioned from Slop Haulers to Lightning Bugs).

GG17 was a set of Strats/schemes that was conducive to Som'er's style of play, but even there he wasn't dominating the fields. His "Activation control" stems from being able to consistently and massively out activate his opponent. This is something that has become more difficult as many factions now have much more access to cheap and good low SS cost models. During GG17 Gremlin's relied heavily on the Stuffed Piglets for that and even then the out activation wasn't that significant. As for the Card Draw, well I have never had it matter that much, even in turns where I was able to recoup a significant number of Control Cards due to Gremlin deaths. Usually the value of the cards is diminished by the loss of the models that I needed for out activation and scoring. I will also offer that while much is made about the potency of Bayou Two Card, it has rarely been a significant factor in any of my games. The Damage is definitely a thing but is far from guaranteed. His Boomer has a low AV (and not just for a Master) and the high damage is triggered off a suit he doesn't possess implicitly (and now can't receive from Lenny). I seem to recall that Lenny got errated around that time period but my recollection could be wrong. It is also a :ranged action so is subject to all of the issues with that (firing into a melee, cover, LOS). Lastly, Som'er really wants to hit well enough to insure the cheatable damage flip. Given his lowish AV (often flipping even against Df) getting to that all important cheatable damage flip is not always easy.

Now all of this was back before some significant erratas, during a particularly advantageous competitive Start/ Scheme pool, and in a format that favors Som'er's quick out the gate style. Even then, Som'er wasn't consistently dominating the competitive fields.

He may be our best competitive option, but he is far from an easy win.

This is of course a huge drift from the subject of this thread, which is Big Brain Brin. I don't think he is really that useful for the reasons that have already been stated in this thread.

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5 hours ago, trikk said:

As for Gremlins, I honestly think there`s probably 2 silly things left.

Two seems like it would be the least amount of silly things in any faction - would you agree?

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11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Two seems like it would be the least amount of silly things in any faction - would you agree?

I dunno, I`d prefer everyone had 0 silly things. I think a lot of good stuff sells a game better than how much silly stuff you have :) But those two are IMHO definitely undercosted.

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So let's make a list of silly things across all factions and let rectify them at one go instead of focusing on Gremlins only. I'm all for that.

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10 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

So let's make a list of silly things across all factions and let rectify them at one go instead of focusing on Gremlins only. I'm all for that.

Sure, name them.

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17 minutes ago, trikk said:

Sure, name them.

Swine Cursed, Lighting Bugs...

please continue

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20 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Swine Cursed, Lighting Bugs...

please continue

Gremlin players have to be more vocal, so speak up :D

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5 hours ago, trikk said:

Gremlin players have to be more vocal, so speak up :D

I play Neverborn myself so I'll chime in as I know the faction quite well. Doppelganger and Primordial Magic are just pure silly, for example.

I can think of a few in other factions but I'll let others add their opinion.

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On 2/1/2018 at 10:07 AM, Omenbringer said:

@Aaron

You definitely bring up some good issues about the faction (though I disagree that Gremlin's don't need cheap spammable models). There was a time when Ulix was considered broken...and yet he isn't any longer. I don't recall any changes to him, people just learned to play against his weaknesses (and like all gremlins these weaknesses are easily exploitable).  Hell there was a time Som'er was considered the ultimate Gremlin (talking about in this edition). Frequent cries of how broken he was filled the air, particularly in regards to Bigger Hat Than You and Bayou Two Card...and yet Som'er has not dominated the competitive fields. Player's just learned to exploit his weaknesses (and he definitely has them).

What I am getting at with all of this is that Gremlin's are far from broken. When things are flowing and they are piloted by a competent player they can appear dominating. They definitely are not. I have played Gremlin's longer than most on these forums and consider myself a very competent Som'er player and yet somehow my community has managed to prevent my dominance. Even one of my newer players figured out that pulling the teeth of even the mighty Pigapult isn't difficult.

The issue with Gremlin's is the very vocal external community that doesn't like the swingyness of the Gremlin's. They seem to forget that the gate swings both ways. I have dominated turns 1-3 only t see the entire gunline crumble in turn 4 and lose the game by turn 5. This is not a fluke...sadly it happens quite a bit.

While it is not necessarily your fault, to gremlin players it seems each errata has targeted us more than anyone else. While many of these erratas I agree with, it seeems that Gremlin's are always under the spotlight while other factions are allowed to keep their "awesome". It doesn't help that the type of things that keep getting complained about are key to our survival. Gremlin's were designed around synergy, waves of weenies, and self-inflicted damage for a bonus. The first one implicitly limits the design space of the faction while the last provides the swing. What does the middle do? Well it is supposed to even the massive attrition the faction faces out (along with the summoning...which I still argue is the most balanced in the game). All of these things add to closures in design space.

I am hoping that the next edition (when ever it may be) can manage to keep the Gremlin feel without providing the constant drone of broken cries that we have seen this edition.

And just to support the statement that Wyrd staff have not accepted all complaints without testing things for themselves...if they didn't and just blindly errata'd any model that was complained about, we would have an expensive Slop Hauler that only heals a single model a single wound ;)

Thank you, this is an excellent response. I 100% agree that Gremlin erratas targeted our staple models more harshly than most, and we've seen said models going from hero to zero over and over again. We all know the names (Lenny, Roosters, Stuffed etc.), all of those models now hardly see the table at all. 

I also do feel that the majority of those erratas were driven by loudest voices, for the most part coming from players that simply didn't learn how to deal with it and preferred to "remove" the problem via an errata.

Finally, I also strongly disagree (and so agree with you) with the idea that Gremlins don't need cheap spammable models. It is one of our defining traits (as you call it, the Gremlin "feel") which was the idea of quantity over quality (i.e. more bodies but with poopy stats). If we lost our numbers (quantity), then factions like Ten Thunders should lose their elite stats (quality). The Stuffed "fix" was one of the worse in the game - adding 1SS to a 2SS model is not the same as adding 1SS to a 10SS models (like McTavish). If the intent was to make them summon-only, then bingo, but otherwise, it seems ham-fisted to me (and not only me). It is really disheartening to hear from @Aaron that you're so adamant about them not going back to 2SS: something pretty drastic needs to happen to them in order to be hired again at 3SS, right now the only thing I can envision is some sort of "discount" if you hire in a bundle (we have a precedent: Oxfordian mages!) or if you hire a Taxidermist.

To conclude, I'm also hoping that next erratas and next edition can preserve the Gremlin feel (and in fact, that of each faction), and that players learn to respect the unique strengths and weaknesses of each faction rather than the push towards uniformity that I'm seeing creeping in more and more. One example, hopefully thought-provoking: how many Reckless models did we get in the entirety of Waves 4 and 5? One (the Swinecursed) - curiously, the only one I hear people complaining a lot about (now that they've stopped complaining about Burt/Frank/Tavish).

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7 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Two seems like it would be the least amount of silly things in any faction - would you agree?

@trikk, Math, please let me add: Swinecursed are good models, but far from silly IMHO. And I play them a lot. Sure, they have the potential to do a lot of damage (less so if outside of Wong) and are very mobile (but then, every reckless model is), but they also die very quickly if you're not careful. They're, like, the perfect idea of Gremlin models.

Bugs are also good for their point cost, yet I find myself fielding them very rarely - they often underperform and unless I specifically know I will need them (e.g. I'll have to face lots of armor) I end up hiring something else.

So that's not silly, that's good - it might seem silly when compared to other models that are not as good. 

I can think of other models that are much more silly than this, two I've named in my previous post about Neverborn but many more come to mind.

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23 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

@trikk, Math, please let me add: Swinecursed are good models, but far from silly IMHO. And I play them a lot. Sure, they have the potential to do a lot of damage (less so if outside of Wong) and are very mobile (but then, every reckless model is), but they also die very quickly if you're not careful. They're, like, the perfect idea of Gremlin models.

Bugs are also good for their point cost, yet I find myself fielding them very rarely - they often underperform and unless I specifically know I will need them (e.g. I'll have to face lots of armor) I end up hiring something else.

So that's not silly, that's good - it might seem silly when compared to other models that are not as good. 

I can think of other models that are much more silly than this, two I've named in my previous post about Neverborn but many more come to mind.

I`m sorry but I disagree. I mean I agree Primordial and Doppel are probably undercosted by 1 (but Primordial plays with what: Lilith and Titania mostly I think) but Swinecursed are absolutely stupid, when combined with Ooh Glowwy and pretty good without it. 

"They die easily" - thats not really true. Death Marshal Recruiters that I think are tough enforcers have HtW instead of heal and 1 more Wp. So I assume they are squishy? If you compare them to Punk Zombies they don`t have HtK but have Df6 and a (0) action heal. December Acolytes? Df5 instead of 6 and 1 more Wd. Convict Gunslingers? 1 more Wds and Df4 with Bulletproof.

 

Also, its been a month. We really can end the Gremlin Errata discussion and making every topic about how unfair life is to Gremlins I think.

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11 minutes ago, trikk said:

Also, its been a month. We really can end the Gremlin Errata discussion and making every topic about how unfair life is to Gremlins I think.

That has been going on a lot longer than a month, but I wholeheartedly agree.

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I want to echo the sentiment that Swine-Cursed are NOT busted at all. HtK and HtW are dramatically different defensive abilities than a zero, with a TN, that confers a heal. I think they're great models but they require some discretion in use or they'll definitely get wiped off the board.


To return to the ACTUAL topic, has anybody tried Brin with Ophelia lately? He's Kin (why?) but I'm not sure I see any special synergy other than maybe the ability to use those Trash markers to move him around and maybe heal a little.

 

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the main issue with Brin is his ability to survive. He needs to be in the think of it to use his aura. He needs to be in the thick of it for his low RG ability. He already cost 7ss so I do not advise spending more SS for him being hench because that increases his overall cost. You spend 1ss for prevention? You might as well taken burt or frank.

A model that does a similar job to Brin would be Sparks ( meddling with opponents abilities by keeping them in his aura), and I find it hard/scary to put a df5 arm1 hench in the middle of enemy crew as he will get focused.

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15 minutes ago, the tick said:

I want to echo the sentiment that Swine-Cursed are NOT busted at all. HtK and HtW are dramatically different defensive abilities than a zero, with a TN, that confers a heal. I think they're great models but they require some discretion in use or they'll definitely get wiped off the board.

HtK is better than heal but Swinecursed have Df6 also. Heal is better than HtW most of the time.

Every 7SS model that isn`t designed to be a tank requires discretion in use or it will get wiped off the board.

 

I`m done :D

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3 hours ago, trikk said:

"They die easily" - thats not really true. Death Marshal Recruiters that I think are tough enforcers have HtW instead of heal and 1 more Wp. So I assume they are squishy? If you compare them to Punk Zombies they don`t have HtK but have Df6 and a (0) action heal. December Acolytes? Df5 instead of 6 and 1 more Wd. Convict Gunslingers? 1 more Wds and Df4 with Bulletproof.

I am not shure if Swine Cursed are too good or not. I personally see them as VERY good with Wong, but with other masters they do not sceam AWESOME. On the Squishyness factor, I see most of the models you are talking about, even as they look like more fragile, remember that the Swine Cursed are Melee models that are sometimes forced to attack even more, giving the player less control of his model, while the recruiter, acolyte and gunslingers are ranged models, which lets them be far away from the troubles.

Back to BBB, I am interested in the model, but I will wait some time before trying him (still do not even have roosters so...). But a cheap condition removal, with ocasional Reactivate and trigger cancelling, I would think about the model when facing Ressers.

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3 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

A model that does a similar job to Brin would be Sparks ( meddling with opponents abilities by keeping them in his aura), and I find it hard/scary to put a df5 arm1 hench in the middle of enemy crew as he will get focused.

Big brain is a lot less situational than Sparks imo. A lot of factions have nasty conditions or put models on :-fate that brain is useful for.

 

Very few I find really need to Target friendly models (though those that do really hate Sparks). Also Sparks needs to be closer to the action since his support requires more moving parts

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On 1/30/2018 at 1:52 PM, Aaron said:

Stuffed Piglets are not going back to 2ss. It won't happen while I get to make the decisions. In my opinion, Malifaux does not need 2ss models that can be hired in any quantities. Cheap models like this have created problem after problem.

I'm waiting the malifaux rats to go to 3ss then. Yes they can only be hired by hamelin but still and hamelin is very powerfull at the moment. Stuffed are rare 6 so 'any quantities' not really and i think lot of gremlins players would be pleased to have them go to 2ss rare 3.

But at least i'm happy that you know stuffed need something and i hope you will do something about them. july errata maybe?

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44 minutes ago, Aegnor said:

I'm waiting the malifaux rats to go to 3ss then. Yes they can only be hired by hamelin but still and hamelin is very powerfull at the moment. Stuffed are rare 6 so 'any quantities' not really and i think lot of gremlins players would be pleased to have them go to 2ss rare 3.

But at least i'm happy that you know stuffed need something and i hope you will do something about them. july errata maybe?

Interesting idea. Hope Aaron will come up with some sort of solution for our undying piece of pork death :)

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I hope too. I just don't understand what is the whole '2ss model are too unhealthy' when there is still one out there and anyone is getting 3ss spamable minions when meanwhile outactivation got weaker. People outactivating nowadays (in my experience) are outactivating by summoning or reactivate (or ashes and dust/ desolation engine like things) and the main goal is to be able to alphastrike (still in my experience and local meta). Yet nothing changed for them and some even got some outactivation buff, i'm thinking alphastriking viks here that can now fill desperate mercenaries to be sure their 40" alpha will go after the opponent.

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