Big Brain Brin - A hidden gem?

[Swinerider]

Cant see using him.  They gave him no defense and all of his abilities have a 6 range.  I wouldnt mind have "sober ya up" in a summon list to remove slow and give the bonus, but 7 points to remove slow and still need to flip an 8 isnt going to happen.  he needs to stay close to the action to be of real use and then will just get picked off.

Aside from the gimmick it doesnt look to have been thought through very well.  

[the tick]

4 hours ago, Swinerider said:

Cant see using him.  They gave him no defense and all of his abilities have a 6 range.  I wouldnt mind have "sober ya up" in a summon list to remove slow and give the bonus, but 7 points to remove slow and still need to flip an 8 isnt going to happen.  he needs to stay close to the action to be of real use and then will just get picked off.

Aside from the gimmick it doesnt look to have been thought through very well.  

The ease with which he could be killed (low Df) and the relatively short range of most of his abilities were brought up on the forums during play-testing this summer. For whatever reason, Wyrd didn't act on those particular comments. Not sure why, maybe they saw something that we didn't or were looking at future releases?

I think it's worth proxying him and see if we can find space for him. Maybe if enough people speak up early on he can be an errata candidate!

[Swinerider]

On 1/25/2018 at 12:46 AM, the tick said:

The ease with which he could be killed (low Df) and the relatively short range of most of his abilities were brought up on the forums during play-testing this summer. For whatever reason, Wyrd didn't act on those particular comments. Not sure why, maybe they saw something that we didn't or were looking at future releases?

I think it's worth proxying him and see if we can find space for him. Maybe if enough people speak up early on he can be an errata candidate!

i dont know, after seeing the comparison of what Gremlins get to what some of the other factions have been getting with each release and errata, it seems like they just want the faction to be there as a novelty but not really compete.  We'll see. If it doesnt look like things are going to turn around soon it may be time to move on.  

[Omenbringer]

19 hours ago, Swinerider said:

i dont know, after seeing the comparison of what Gremlins get to what some of the other factions have been getting with each release and errata, it seems like they just want the faction to be there as a novelty but not really compete.  We'll see. If it doesnt look like things are going to turn around soon it may be time to move on.  

Gremlin's are a very difficult faction to balance because of their designed synergy and self inflicted damage. They really aren't in a good place, regardless of the anecdotes about the "perfect storm" of abilities that make them supposedly unbeatable (they really are not, particularly once a player has learned which lynch-pin models make things function).

Errata's aren't going to help that.

[PositronMike]

Big Brain Brin is interesting mainly for his aura that means models who cause a friendly to fail a WP duel must pitch a card or take 1 damage. This can really mess up certain crews. I have had him cause a Pandora player to dump their entire hand after inflicting on a bunch of gremlins near him. He also upset Zoraida immensely, so far I am relatively happy dropping him into the crew if I am facing neverborn and the strat or schemes call for models to bunch up. 

[Swinerider]

46 minutes ago, PositronMike said:

Big Brain Brin is interesting mainly for his aura that means models who cause a friendly to fail a WP duel must pitch a card or take 1 damage. This can really mess up certain crews. I have had him cause a Pandora player to dump their entire hand after inflicting on a bunch of gremlins near him. He also upset Zoraida immensely, so far I am relatively happy dropping him into the crew if I am facing neverborn and the strat or schemes call for models to bunch up. 

seems like they just werent familiar with him, especially the Zoraida player.  maybe she takes 1 damage or tosses the lowest card in hand but either way have someone charge and kill Brin isnt too hard

[the tick]

On 1/26/2018 at 2:23 PM, Swinerider said:

i dont know, after seeing the comparison of what Gremlins get to what some of the other factions have been getting with each release and errata, it seems like they just want the faction to be there as a novelty but not really compete.  We'll see. If it doesnt look like things are going to turn around soon it may be time to move on.  

I don't disagree at all. For better or worse the faction has been the target of some really aggressive errata changes. Since I started playing I've noticed a persistent and very loud background noise of people raging against the faction on almost every single podcast, here on the forums, and on other social media sites as well. As @Omenbringer mentioned I don't think the current errata is going to fix some of the problems (both real and perceived) within the faction. I just don't think our voice, as people who enjoy the faction, is being heard at all. I'm not sure that it'll do any good, but I think if we try playing some of these bad models, get their stories out there in the form of battle reports or tactica reviews then maybe we can start being louder than all the gremlin detractors out there. As part of all that I think we could maybe make specific recommendations for changes to some of these models to bring them up to snuff. Again, I'm really jaded that this will work, but if we don't start speaking up, then whenever it comes time to make major sweeping changes (faction rewrite? M3E?), we won't have a vote.

[Swinerider]

On 1/27/2018 at 11:50 PM, the tick said:

 Again, I'm really jaded that this will work, but if we don't start speaking up, then whenever it comes time to make major sweeping changes (faction rewrite? M3E?), we won't have a vote.

At this point the best we can hope for is to get stuffed back into the outcasts! haha

oh, i've made myself sad....

[Lucidicide]

On 1/27/2018 at 11:50 PM, the tick said:

I just don't think our voice, as people who enjoy the faction, is being heard at all.

I listen, and I read. I pay as much attention as I can... the problem is perspective. Gremlin players feel like I'm beating down on them, and it seems like anything I give them isn't right or isn't enough. When the Faction wins major events, it's a fluke or because of reason x, y, or z... which somehow always amounts to Gremlin players feeling that Gremlins aren't good enough.

There are three designers who are involved with Malifaux in the office, two of which were actively involved in the latest errata... and both of them (this includes me) play (or have played) Gremlins in this edition. When people cried Ulix was broken, we went down to the store and played it. When people complained about Mah, we played it.

Just like "Gremlin players" (which somehow manages to not include the two designers who get involved with them) have their perspective, so do we. I'm not arguing Gremlins are perfectly balanced, but I promise you they get attention. The players get listened to and the models get played. Sometimes, we'll just disagree on what needs to be done and/or how quickly everything should be addressed.

[the tick]

1 hour ago, Aaron said:

I listen, and I read. I pay as much attention as I can... the problem is perspective. Gremlin players feel like I'm beating down on them, and it seems like anything I give them isn't right or isn't enough. When the Faction wins major events, it's a fluke or because of reason x, y, or z... which somehow always amounts to Gremlin players feeling that Gremlins aren't good enough.

There are three designers who are involved with Malifaux in the office, two of which were actively involved in the latest errata... and both of them (this includes me) play (or have played) Gremlins in this edition. When people cried Ulix was broken, we went down to the store and played it. When people complained about Mah, we played it.

Just like "Gremlin players" (which somehow manages to not include the two designers who get involved with them) have their perspective, so do we. I'm not arguing Gremlins are perfectly balanced, but I promise you they get attention. The players get listened to and the models get played. Sometimes, we'll just disagree on what needs to be done and/or how quickly everything should be addressed.

Admittedly my Malifaux world is real real small and you're probably right that my perspective is off. I'll try to beat the drum a little less hard....although I still think the atmosphere on social media and pod-cast world is rather anti-Gremlin.

Still, thanks for the post. I'm not a game designer, so the extend to which we disagree is just based around my own selfish attitudes towards my faction. I appreciate all the hard work you guys/gals are putting into the game, even if it doesn't come off like that.

[Lucidicide]

Hey, beat the drum as loud as you'd like.

I'm just saying that your voice is heard.

[Lokibri]

9 minutes ago, Aaron said:

Hey, beat the drum as loud as you'd like.

I'm just saying that your voice is heard.

@Aaron

 who the hell would play the drums in the bayou, when we got the banjonistas pulling the strings for a nice hoedown?!

I can certainly understand your approach and would really like to consider a -1SS on stuffed piglets now with gg18 and desparate mercs and discounted guild guards... please play it out :-)

See you in the Bayou ! *whisteling a  hoedown *

[Lucidicide]

Gluttony. Gluttony would play the drums in the Bayou.

Stuffed Piglets are not going back to 2ss. It won't happen while I get to make the decisions. In my opinion, Malifaux does not need 2ss models that can be hired in any quantities. Cheap models like this have created problem after problem.

[daniello_s]

3 minutes ago, Aaron said:

Gluttony. Gluttony would play the drums in the Bayou.

Stuffed Piglets are not going back to 2ss. It won't happen while I get to make the decisions. In my opinion, Malifaux does not need 2ss models that can be hired in any quantities. Cheap models like this have created problem after problem.

Whatever you decide but make them somehow playable outside of bringing Taxidermist/Sammy.

[Lucidicide]

That is a much more fair request

[Lokibri]

8 hours ago, Aaron said:

That is a much more fair request

i can certainly live with that :D.

I thought so, that they won`t go back...but hey u gotta try what you gotty try :D.

I think you will figure something out :). thx for your work ^^

 

See you in the Bayou! (Without gluttony... this invader ate all of mah's "special soup surprisé"...what an infamous move!

[Swinerider]

On 1/30/2018 at 7:58 AM, Aaron said:

That is a much more fair request

And please don't make the Nightmare box Ulix with chickens instead of pigs. 😆 A Gremlin variant on Zoraida or new master please please please. 

[wizuriel]

19 hours ago, Swinerider said:

And please don't make the Nightmare box Ulix with chickens instead of pigs. 😆 A Gremlin variant on Zoraida or new master please please please. 

No we need Nightmare Bunny Farmer Ulix

 

and back on topic

So clear-headed is a great way to gun down Jack Daw

[Omenbringer]

@Aaron

You definitely bring up some good issues about the faction (though I disagree that Gremlin's don't need cheap spammable models). There was a time when Ulix was considered broken...and yet he isn't any longer. I don't recall any changes to him, people just learned to play against his weaknesses (and like all gremlins these weaknesses are easily exploitable).  Hell there was a time Som'er was considered the ultimate Gremlin (talking about in this edition). Frequent cries of how broken he was filled the air, particularly in regards to Bigger Hat Than You and Bayou Two Card...and yet Som'er has not dominated the competitive fields. Player's just learned to exploit his weaknesses (and he definitely has them).

What I am getting at with all of this is that Gremlin's are far from broken. When things are flowing and they are piloted by a competent player they can appear dominating. They definitely are not. I have played Gremlin's longer than most on these forums and consider myself a very competent Som'er player and yet somehow my community has managed to prevent my dominance. Even one of my newer players figured out that pulling the teeth of even the mighty Pigapult isn't difficult.

The issue with Gremlin's is the very vocal external community that doesn't like the swingyness of the Gremlin's. They seem to forget that the gate swings both ways. I have dominated turns 1-3 only t see the entire gunline crumble in turn 4 and lose the game by turn 5. This is not a fluke...sadly it happens quite a bit.

While it is not necessarily your fault, to gremlin players it seems each errata has targeted us more than anyone else. While many of these erratas I agree with, it seeems that Gremlin's are always under the spotlight while other factions are allowed to keep their "awesome". It doesn't help that the type of things that keep getting complained about are key to our survival. Gremlin's were designed around synergy, waves of weenies, and self-inflicted damage for a bonus. The first one implicitly limits the design space of the faction while the last provides the swing. What does the middle do? Well it is supposed to even the massive attrition the faction faces out (along with the summoning...which I still argue is the most balanced in the game). All of these things add to closures in design space.

I am hoping that the next edition (when ever it may be) can manage to keep the Gremlin feel without providing the constant drone of broken cries that we have seen this edition.

And just to support the statement that Wyrd staff have not accepted all complaints without testing things for themselves...if they didn't and just blindly errata'd any model that was complained about, we would have an expensive Slop Hauler that only heals a single model a single wound

[daniello_s]

 

32 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

@Aaron

You definitely bring up some good issues about the faction (though I disagree that Gremlin's don't need cheap spammable models). There was a time when Ulix was considered broken...and yet he isn't any longer. I don't recall any changes to him, people just learned to play against his weaknesses (and like all gremlins these weaknesses are easily exploitable).  Hell there was a time Som'er was considered the ultimate Gremlin (talking about in this edition). Frequent cries of how broken he was filled the air, particularly in regards to Bigger Hat Than You and Bayou Two Card...and yet Som'er has not dominated the competitive fields. Player's just learned to exploit his weaknesses (and he definitely has them).

What I am getting at with all of this is that Gremlin's are far from broken. When things are flowing and they are piloted by a competent player they can appear dominating. They definitely are not. I have played Gremlin's longer than most on these forums and consider myself a very competent Som'er player and yet somehow my community has managed to prevent my dominance. Even one of my newer players figured out that pulling the teeth of even the mighty Pigapult isn't difficult.

The issue with Gremlin's is the very vocal external community that doesn't like the swingyness of the Gremlin's. They seem to forget that the gate swings both ways. I have dominated turns 1-3 only t see the entire gunline crumble in turn 4 and lose the game by turn 5. This is not a fluke...sadly it happens quite a bit.

While it is not necessarily your fault, to gremlin players it seems each errata has targeted us more than anyone else. While many of these erratas I agree with, it seeems that Gremlin's are always under the spotlight while other factions are allowed to keep their "awesome". It doesn't help that the type of things that keep getting complained about are key to our survival. Gremlin's were designed around synergy, waves of weenies, and self-inflicted damage for a bonus. The first one implicitly limits the design space of the faction while the last provides the swing. What does the middle do? Well it is supposed to even the massive attrition the faction faces out (along with the summoning...which I still argue is the most balanced in the game). All of these things add to closures in design space.

I am hoping that the next edition (when ever it may be) can manage to keep the Gremlin feel without providing the constant drone of broken cries that we have seen this edition.

And just to support the statement that Wyrd staff have not accepted all complaints without testing things for themselves...if they didn't and just blindly errata'd any model that was complained about, we would have an expensive Slop Hauler that only heals a single model a single wound

I'll drink to that. Skol!

[Swinerider]

1 hour ago, wizuriel said:

No we need Nightmare Bunny Farmer Ulix

 

and back on topic

So clear-headed is a great way to gun down Jack Daw

I agree, clear headed is good. I just don't know that it is good enough to support the whole model. I'll try him out again when I play next. 

No Ulix bunnies! My Ulix crew is already painted, I don't want to buy a new one 😆

[trikk]

19 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

@Aaron

You definitely bring up some good issues about the faction (though I disagree that Gremlin's don't need cheap spammable models). There was a time when Ulix was considered broken...and yet he isn't any longer. I don't recall any changes to him, people just learned to play against his weaknesses (and like all gremlins these weaknesses are easily exploitable).  Hell there was a time Som'er was considered the ultimate Gremlin (talking about in this edition). Frequent cries of how broken he was filled the air, particularly in regards to Bigger Hat Than You and Bayou Two Card...and yet Som'er has not dominated the competitive fields. Player's just learned to exploit his weaknesses (and he definitely has them).

What I am getting at with all of this is that Gremlin's are far from broken. When things are flowing and they are piloted by a competent player they can appear dominating. They definitely are not. I have played Gremlin's longer than most on these forums and consider myself a very competent Som'er player and yet somehow my community has managed to prevent my dominance. Even one of my newer players figured out that pulling the teeth of even the mighty Pigapult isn't difficult.

The issue with Gremlin's is the very vocal external community that doesn't like the swingyness of the Gremlin's. They seem to forget that the gate swings both ways. I have dominated turns 1-3 only t see the entire gunline crumble in turn 4 and lose the game by turn 5. This is not a fluke...sadly it happens quite a bit.

While it is not necessarily your fault, to gremlin players it seems each errata has targeted us more than anyone else. While many of these erratas I agree with, it seeems that Gremlin's are always under the spotlight while other factions are allowed to keep their "awesome". It doesn't help that the type of things that keep getting complained about are key to our survival. Gremlin's were designed around synergy, waves of weenies, and self-inflicted damage for a bonus. The first one implicitly limits the design space of the faction while the last provides the swing. What does the middle do? Well it is supposed to even the massive attrition the faction faces out (along with the summoning...which I still argue is the most balanced in the game). All of these things add to closures in design space.

I am hoping that the next edition (when ever it may be) can manage to keep the Gremlin feel without providing the constant drone of broken cries that we have seen this edition.

And just to support the statement that Wyrd staff have not accepted all complaints without testing things for themselves...if they didn't and just blindly errata'd any model that was complained about, we would have an expensive Slop Hauler that only heals a single model a single wound

I have a genuine question. Please don`t take it as an offense, because that`s not my intention. Did you play in international or big tournaments? Somer was probably in the top 3-4 masters of GG17 (probably after Hamelin and Sandeep). I had a nice eye opener when I went to the UK Nationals and ITC. Of course if you`re a rubbish player you`re going to get stomped even when playing a potent master but the activation control combined with damage and card draw was pretty bonkers. He lost a bit of steam in GG18 because the strategies and schemes don`t promote outactivation as much but I still think he`s a lot closer to the top than to the middle. 

 

As for turns. The issue with tournaments is: 1) chasing points is harder than earning them and 2) there`s a higher chance we`ll end up turn 4 than turn 6 most of the time which puts a faction that has 125% steam early and 75% late is a big advantage.

 

As for Gremlins, I honestly think there`s probably 2 silly things left. Swinecrused and LBs. Swinecursed are just WTF good and my biggest issue with LB is that them having reckless blocks a lot of good 5SS stuff because Reckless >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No Reckless.

[daniello_s]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

As for Gremlins, I honestly think there`s probably 2 silly things left. Swinecrused and LBs. Swinecursed are just WTF good and my biggest issue with LB is that them having reckless blocks a lot of good 5SS stuff because Reckless >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No Reckless.

As reckless seems a general problem what would you recommend to replace it?

[trikk]

3 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

As reckless seems a general problem what would you recommend to replace it?

If we want them to keep it I think they nees to go down to ca5 and a different suit for heal.

If we want to replace reckless then I dont know what to do to not make them bad.

[Lokibri]

1 minute ago, trikk said:

If we want them to keep it I think they nees to go down to ca5 and a different suit for heal.

If we want to replace reckless then I dont know what to do to not make them bad.

What i could think of is a flip. Maybe a 4+ or something. Not as a 0-Action, but as an ability. You could still use the Bayou Two Card ability to improve your chances, but there would be a chance to fail.

I don`t think it is necessary, because GG18 plays very different than GG17 and reckless has not that much of an impact at the moment, but we will see.