What about Ten Thunders erratas ?

[bedjy]

Hey everyone, the idea was good everywhere else, so why not here ?! So, what kind of erratas do we need ?

Things that are not good enough to see plays :

High river monk : 3" push, A bit more thoughness or maybe another tactical / attack

tengu > Still the Earth : Mobility triggers / Some effects based on the color of the discarded cards. Maybe 1 more Df

archers : a little more def/hp, a descent 0 action

fuhatsu : min dmg 3 ?

 

Things that see too much plays! :

Yasunori : min dmg 2

Shadow emissary : cast 6 TN 12 Rite of strenght 

Brother : ?

Let's discuss what would be the best for our faction !

[Nukemouse]

Tengu could see their heal get better maybe? Low river, sun quiang, obsidian oni and tanuki all heal now, so tengu either need to swap that out for a new ability or do a better job.

High river monk push is fine. Longer charge and a better min or  to damage could be nice.

[Tokapondora]

Glad to see an errata thread that isn't just a list of some fifty-odd buffs they'd like to see. That said though, I'd say TT is largely fine, balance-wise. Nothing springs out as gamebreaking or unhealthy for the game, and the couple of units that are useless tend to be useless because their entire design and direction is off, rather than them having the wrong numbers. 

 

For nerfs I'd really only say the Terracotta Warriors could see their TN's raised to 14ish? Make taking them an actual investment rather than a Might-as-well kind of thing. 

Giving Yasunori a min damage of 2 on a 12(13)SS model would completely kill it. I'd sooner go for a simple raise in TN's again to up the investment-factor and maybe restrict the Kodoku damage to +2, though I'd say he doesn't really need to be taken down a lot in the first place. Plenty of ways to interact with and punish him. 

 

For buffs I'd just like to see our weaker masters get some attention. Bad models you can ignore but you shouldn't be in a position where you're best of ignoring masters.

Misaki should get the min damage on her Bisento upped to 3. For a Melee master to have such a pitiful damage track has always been ridiculous. Misaki seems best described as a one trick pony that can't even do that one trick well. And raise her Bisento's Rg to 3. She has a massive spear, you'd imagine that would actually get you some reach. Would allow her to better utilize her Ml7 and compliment her dive-bomb-y playstyle. And then maybe raise the SS cost of her new The Storm upgrade to 2 SS and let Fury of the Storm make all damage from Thunder not reducable. It'd allow her to do something about defensey models besides poking it with 2-3 blast damage hits hoping whatever you Thunder off of doesn't die before they do. Might give her an actual niche.

 

The Brewmaster has been plagued by excessive need for set up. One of the simplest buffs, that would actually make a massive difference, would've been a  on his Obey. Suddenly he needs less setup, giving set up becomes easier, and he has a reliable damage source through the models around him. But alas, I suppose an upgrade saying + would've been boring and now we're stuck with more set up to enable set up and a damage source that you can't rely on and doesn't even synergise with his Wp aura.

Now the other option would've been to give this upgrade a  to all duel totals against models with the Poison condition. It'd suddenly give a nice boost to his defenses as you can no longer attack him willy-nilly if you're poisoned, but if you're dedicating your high cards to it the Brewmaster will still fold. I guess it'd also pop up on Misdirection which I'd honestly say is fine but I suppose you could just give him a  to his Df instead. It'd even compliment the poison-style Wyrd is desperately trying to push. That said though, it's still set up upon set up and I think we're best off looking for general solutions (besides the beautiful and elegantly simple -to-obey).

Taking into account the little amount of space left on his card the one fix that needs to happen is for Kegger to be stuffed on his actual card. It might actually allow for taking some of the Tri Chi that Wyrd wants you to use together without forcing a TCW in every single list to get rid of a useless upgrade. And I can't imagine even looking at this upgrade if you're playing Gremlins. And with Kegger on his card, you could give him some actual useful abilities on Running Tab. Ideal would be some triggers to his existing actions (might help synergise with A Friendly Ear on s) or simply a brand new attack. Swill affects flips, Binge affects hands, Obey affects damage/positioning, Drinking Contest affects AP - ideally we'd get something else to attack resources. I'd like something like Shenlong's Blocked to prevent Soulstone use, further priming models for death and giving him another resource to fiddle with.

 

Beyond these two there's very little I'd say needs to be stronger. I am feeling min damage 3 on Fuhatsu though. It'd give him an actual forte rather than being a more expensive Samurai. 

[Nukemouse]

Yeah brewmaster really needs a way to contribute to setting up for his other models/himself. Obey could have its mask built in and get a trigger for double mask though. Right now he has to get right up next to people to poison them consistently enough, a way to do 3+ poison at range or do poison to multiple models at once like marcus now has would be good.

[MrDeathTrout]

Thunder Archers need something as well.  They have potential, but are over shadowed by every other shooting model in TT.

[Nikodemus]

Do Tengu really need help? Cheap as chips, wk5 flight (0) to blow up scheme markers. Feel like reasonable models to me.

Thunder Archers and High River Monks do need some help. Archers feel too fragile for their cost, whether I look at it in terms of them dying or just being made useless by engaging them. Cost reduction, durability increase or something to make them not worthless when engaged would help. For High Rivers I'd look at more damage (1/2/4 ?!?), more burning hijinks or just... something. By faction standards they're not exceptionally fast, durable, hard hitting or able to do any other neat stuff either. They're not even exceptional generalists. Pretty models, would be nice if they performed alright on the table as well.

[Raimu]

I participated in tournament where I had to play exclusevly with Shenlong starter. Man, 3 monks of high river is 18 points of nothingness. They do need some errata in order to represent most aggressive teaching of five rivers valley.

[MrDeathTrout]

Do Tengu need a buff?  I'm torn.  I love them for scheme marker removal, but they can't do much else.  Its too much work go get much out of their give regen, with so many other good healers.  They are too fragile to even stand up to other scheme runners.  So all I ever use them for is darting out and removing a couple of markers before they die.  So I almost never take them since their us is so limited.

 

For TT Archers make their Leap Aside ability built in and work after an attack succeeds (instead of fails as it is now).  So your opponent gets one good wack at them.  As it is the trigger is so hard to get off it might as well not be there.  

 

[Eclipse]

I have found that while indeed some models are strictly better OR easier to use than others the ones than get taken rarely can surprise the opponent (especially if you learn how to use them effectively). Tengu for example are fine as is for 4ss imo, there are many more options for scheme running that can be hired into lists while they are still fine for Asami summons. Many people find Oiran useless, but I have been quite successful in using them with Smoke & Shadows and Hidden Agenda on Fuhatsu of all models as flankers, suprise Message delivery, etc. Ama no Zako and Ototo can be quite powerful combined with the debuffs the Brewmaster gives out as well as the healing going aroun in his crew. From the faction pool I only find that High River Monks and and TT Archers need some special attention - they are both models that make me feel handicapped.
I voted for High River Monks last year when faction buffs were considered by Wyrd, yet I still don't see how they could be made more unique. I wouldn't mind if they are dropped to 5ss and run as counter schemers or something. On another note, Ch6 and Ml 1" with 1/2/4 for a dedicated melee model is absolutely MEH for a dedicated melee model. Maybe change it to Ch7, Ml 2" with 2/3/4? This way if you take the burning into account as well they actually would be quite strong, while currently they are just more generic Oiran with Burning instead of Poison.
TT Archers: Once again, the easiest option here would be to drop them to 5ss. If Archers and monks are all 5ss-ish they could be great filler for thematic lists and still do some work for a cheap cost. At their current cost they need one more wound (more would be too much as they are ranged and you should know to keep them safe). Their defensive trigger "Leap Aside" is a joke with their Df 4, waste of card space. They could find use for the  trigger to move 3" after shooting way more than snipers. Alternatively, an interesting (0) action could be useful for them - for example to drop a friendly or enemy scheme marker from the target, or to pin a target so it's unable to take some movement actions (similar to Asami's new upgrade, Rail Worker's trigger).
I like the idea to up Fuhatsu's min damage to 3 as I use him sometimes, although this moves him away from his gambling nature even further. I like to this of him as a tank: You have to run up close and lob grenades inside to blow him up; otherwise he will blast you apart with his artillery. Maybe. If he hits.
I don't really use most mainstay staples of the faction like the Emissary, TT Brothers, Yasunori so I can't give an opinion from personal experience on them. I do use Sensei Yu and snipers occasionally (soon to be joined by Terracotta Warriors), but they have clear pros and cons and are fine as is. 

[Sklertic]

Buffs

TT Archers: Drop them to 5ss or give them a (0) push out of melee or something to that effect.

Yamaziko: She's supposed to be this great tactician, so why not allow her to reduce the cost of 1 upgrade she takes by 1ss?

Ototo: Give him Nimble.

Misaki: Min dmg 3 is a good idea.

High river monk: Lower the price by 1ss or up min dmg to 2.

Nerfs

Illuminated: Remove regen 1 or their heal spell.

Kamaitachi: It's too good compared to the master specific ones, but I do not know what could be done about it.

 

 

There's probably more, but that's what just popped in my head

 

[Amayasu]

On 4 October 2017 at 4:31 AM, bedjy said:

Things that see too much plays! :

Yasunori : min dmg 2

Shadow emissary : cast 6 TN 12 Rite of strenght 

Yasunori is common because he's good... he's also 12 stones in a faction that lacks anything like a Yasunori. Making him min damage 2 would kill it. I'd argue that Alpha Striking with Yas is too strong, and with that in mind, his zero actions are too potent. Being able to barrel in knowing your next three cards, and change their order is good. Being able to Command a minion to attack, with +damage based on VP, is amazing. I think there are ways you could tone him down but keep min3. Perhaps the triggered free attacks lose the build in . Perhaps Kodoku only works on friendly minions, so that Alpha Strike isn't 4 Yas attacks and one of your own minions turning on you. etc etc... but min3 is what he is; dropping it to 2 would require something else.

Regarding the Emissary i'd like to see Rite of Strength only work if the model is carrying an Upgrade with a cost greater than zero.

Buffs i'd like to see;

Monk of the High River; Min damage 2! Or, +1 damage for each point of burning, capped at +2. There is nothing wrong with the rest of their card IMHO. It's just damage.

Brewmaster; Despite Wave 5 he's still a mediocre ranged debuffer. Drinking Contest is fine on paper, awful on the table. He's one failed initiative flip away from being toast. Suggested bandaid fix; give him instinctual so that he can take his two zeros and become semi self-sufficient, as well as infiltration. He's a master that relies on every other model to be able to be a master... but honestly, he needs something more. We're five books in and he's really unfocused, perhaps because of all of the drinking.

 

[santaclaws01]

6 hours ago, Sklertic said:

Kamaitachi: It's too good compared to the master specific ones, but I do not know what could be done about it.

 

Compared to what master specific ones? The only totem that you'll really take it over is maybe the Emberling(assuming you're also taking the TCW) and Amanjaku(again, assuming you have the TCW). Every other master specific totem it's either strictly worse than, or it's a good situational take. Hell most of the time it's just 4 stones for usually 4 Wds healed and 5 cards, assuming it lives the whole game.

[Da Git]

6 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Compared to what master specific ones? The only totem that you'll really take it over is maybe the Emberling(assuming you're also taking the TCW) and Amanjaku(again, assuming you have the TCW). Every other master specific totem it's either strictly worse than, or it's a good situational take. Hell most of the time it's just 4 stones for usually 4 Wds healed and 5 cards, assuming it lives the whole game.

If you're going Houndless McCabe, I'd say he's much better than Luna...

Otherwise, it depends if you were taking the TCW anyway... If you were, then Kamaitachi can be a very good choice!

I definitely don't see him needing any cuddles though.

[Sklertic]

Might just be me then

[Da Git]

I'd super-duper-amazingly love for Brewy to have Infiltration on his base card and make the upgrade actually useful...

[Patzer]

Archers. Just a bad model. Lowering their cost and make their DF 6 might make them useful. If nothing should be done about their DF, just throw Leap Aside away. Right now that trigger just adds insult to injury. They are too nice of sculpts to be treated like this.

Fuhatsu. Just get rid of Braced.

Ototo. Give him Ml expert, while getting rid of Flurry. Raise the WP to 5 at least. Make his triggers a bit more inspiring.

Beckoners. Keep them as they are, but lower their cost to 6.

Terracotta Warrior. Up Ancient Treasures TN to 14. 

Misaki. Bisento should really be min 3.

Yasunori. Lower its charge to 8".

 

 

 

[newsun]

I like the buff ideas, every nerf idea kills the model in question and we are not topping tournaments regularly to require that in the first place.

[Da Git]

On 17/10/2017 at 5:58 AM, Patzer said:

Archers. Just a bad model. Lowering their cost and make their DF 6 might make them useful. If nothing should be done about their DF, just throw Leap Aside away. Right now that trigger just adds insult to injury. They are too nice of sculpts to be treated like this.

Fuhatsu. Just get rid of Braced.

Ototo. Give him Ml expert, while getting rid of Flurry. Raise the WP to 5 at least. Make his triggers a bit more inspiring.

Beckoners. Keep them as they are, but lower their cost to 6.

Terracotta Warrior. Up Ancient Treasures TN to 14. 

Misaki. Bisento should really be min 3.

Yasunori. Lower its charge to 8".

I could get behind all those ideas, even the cuddles. 

[Tokapondora]

I just hope the erratas are kept as small as possible. Look at the models that are blatantly overpowered or NPE-y and don't bother with buffs unless it's for masters. Most bad models have plenty of great competition in their price range and really don't need to be dragged in there - at some point you're just cluttering up the game with erratas. They weren't up to par and such is life; can't all be winners. It's just masters that you can't ignore being bad because every one of them can be someone's first or only tie to the game. They're so integral to any crew that any one of them needs to be viable - maybe not competitively in all strats, but generally speaking.

For our cheaper masters Yan got some great new toys so it's a bit too early to tell, Misaki didn't get any better at what she did and just got a situational alternative, Mei got some very lackluster upgrades for her already completely filled slots and the Brewmaster got cheaper Wesley and a situational cost reduction for one of his actions - nothing to actually fix or enhance his very lacking abilities and actions. The others are all fine, so I think it's most important to focus on the last three. 

For other models, maybe look at a model or so per faction that you can actually let fill a niche but beyond that I say leave it. Fuhatsu will always be an inferior Lazarus unless you give him giant numbers (min 3 wouldn't cut it realistically). High River Monks are poorly designed from the ground up. The most obvious buffs Ototo wants only turn him more and more into an Izamu reskin. Keep it to models who clearly have potential, only with something wonky in the details (see the LRM that got the vote last year). Don't go for models that make you go "That's garbage" - go for models that make you go "That's a waste". Archers and their contentious price range, Oiran and their unsuited Lure, Yamaziko and her low numbers where it matters...

[MrDeathTrout]

 

 

2 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

I just hope the erratas are kept as small as possible.

Second that.  If we have 20-30 models errata'd every January its going to get really old really fast.

[Kogan Style]

To be honest  I think the only thing that should be errata'd (or rather FAQ'd) is Schrodinger's Huggy (Huggy with Death Contract, Lynch with Rising Sun. Both Death Contract and Eternal Darkness trigger upon Huggy's apparent death). It should be noted whether this is acceptable (by its absence of any FAQ/Errata) or stated that it is an unintended consequence and fixed.

[Mason]

1 minute ago, Kogan Style said:

To be honest  I think the only thing that should be errata'd (or rather FAQ'd) is Schrodinger's Huggy (Huggy with Death Contract, Lynch with Rising Sun. Both Death Contract and Eternal Darkness trigger upon Huggy's apparent death). It should be noted whether this is acceptable (by its absence of any FAQ/Errata) or stated that it is an unintended consequence and fixed.

Doesn't Death Contract trigger upon the model being killed or sacrificed? Rising Sun says that when Huggy would be killed, he's not killed and is instead buried, so that would prevent Death Contract from triggering. It would still work if Huggy was sacrificed, of course, but then he's not coming back from Rising Sun...

[Amayasu]

42 minutes ago, Mason said:

Doesn't Death Contract trigger upon the model being killed or sacrificed? Rising Sun says that when Huggy would be killed, he's not killed and is instead buried, so that would prevent Death Contract from triggering. It would still work if Huggy was sacrificed, of course, but then he's not coming back from Rising Sun...

They both trigger *when* the model is killed. Timing wise they're both at exactly the same time, with the same wording, and as there's a conflict the owner chooses the order.

The Rising Sun wording is: "When a friendly Hungering Darkness model in play is killed", not "would be". 

I think rather than trying to rework the wording, it'd be better to simply add "Once per game" to Death Contract (assuming that Death Contract firing every time Huggy is killed is unintentional).

[MrDeathTrout]

 

They do resolve at the same time, so you need to check general timing. Since they are both abilities you need to go to the steps.  Assuming huggie was the defender and Lynch was not the attacker Death Contract takes effect in step 2, then Rising Sun (on Lynch) takes effect in step 3 or 4 depending on if he's the first or second player.

PS I'm all for this getting fixed, but Raputina getting to use her Overpower trigger on a model she just killed should be fixed as well.  Think these both fall into the same category, though the rules that make them work are different.

 

Quote

General Timing
Most Abilities grant a passive effect, some of which have their effect when a model suffers damage or is killed. Whenever any Ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first. If two Abilities happen at the same time, resolve them in the following order:
1. The Acting Model resolves its Abilities.
2. The Defending Model (if there is one) resolves its Abilities.
3. Any other models controlled by the First Player resolves all of their Ability effects in any order the First Player chooses.
4. Any other models controlled by the Second Player resolves all of their Ability effects in any order the Second Player chooses.

 

[Tokapondora]

I'd say only fix it if it proves to be overpowered. As it is now it seems more like a weird little gimmick that doesn't particularly contribute to suddenly being too strong or awful to play against (though, admittedly, I've always been a fan of quirky interactions).