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Lucky Effigy's Condition and what is a flip


Math Mathonwy

Question

Lucky Effigy can give this Condition:

"Lucky Draw: Whenever this model flips a :ram in a duel, it may immediately heal 1 damage."

If the model with a Condition has suffered four damage and then has :-fate:-fate for a duel and flips 12:ram, 11:ram, and 2:crow does the model heal two as it flipped two Rams cards even though it is forced to choose the two of crows?

Also, does the model heal when flipping a Red Joker?

I'm guessing that the answer to both questions is yes, it heals in both cases. But there was some discussion about this one in a game today.

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"When a flip is required, the model turns over one or more cards from the top of the Fate Deck to achieve a random number and/or suit." pg. 26, big rulebook, pg. 16 in the small one.

Underlining mine. A flip only ever produces a single suit, regardless of how many cards you flip.

As that is the part of the rules that explains what a flip is, it deserves quite a lot more weight than all the instances that may or may not use the term incorrectly.

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35 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

@WWHSD You are 100% correct. No one is trying to argue that all cards involved in a flip weren't flipped. However, Lucky Effigy's ability doesn't say anything about flipped cards, it speaks about flips, so that is all more or less irrelevant.


The Lucky Effigy ability doesn't say anything about needing to chose a :ram as the activate card. It just needs to flip a :ram.  The Effigy's card is using "flips" as a verb, not as a noun. It's similar to these two sections. Both are examples of a model flipping cards and is using "flips" to describe the action of flipping those cards. I don't see an example in the rules of "flips" being used to mean the same thing as "chosen as the active card".  

2E Core, pg 27:
"Example: The Guild Guard flips two cards. One
base, plus an additional card for the final + (after
cancellations)."

2E Core, pg. 33:
"2. Flip Fate Card and Add Stat
Seamus and the Freikorpsmann both flip their cards and
add their relevant stats. Seamus flips two cards (one as
normal, plus one more for the :+fate from the Soulstone). His
cards are 6:crow and 11:ram. Seamus decides to use the 11R,
discarding the rest, and adds his Ml of 7 for an initial duel
total of 18:ram:mask (including the :mask from the Soulstone).
The poor Freikorpsmann flips only one card, a 3:tome, his
Df of 5 makes his total a 8:tome."

 

 

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A counter point was presented in the form of The Guild Lawyer:

(1) OBJECTION!!! (Ca 6:tome / Rst: Wp / Rg: :melee1): Target suffers 2/2/2 damage. If
Moderate damage is flipped or cheated target gains Slow, or Paralyzed in the case
of Severe.

I don't think that anyone would argue that if you are doing damage at a :-fate and flip a severe and a weak, the target is Paralyzed.

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28 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

"When a flip is required, the model turns over one or more cards from the top of the Fate Deck to achieve a random number and/or suit." pg. 26, big rulebook, pg. 16 in the small one.

Underlining mine. A flip only ever produces a single suit, regardless of how many cards you flip.

As that is the part of the rules that explains what a flip is, it deserves quite a lot more weight than all the instances that may or may not use the term incorrectly.

But that part hasn't yet gotten to the :+fate and :-fate and there it talks about flipping additional cards. You naturally get only a single suit and a single number for the duel but Lucky Draw isn't talking about the result but about flipping.

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4 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

But that part hasn't yet gotten to the :+fate and :-fate and there it talks about flipping additional cards. You naturally get only a single suit and a single number for the duel but Lucky Draw isn't talking about the result but about flipping.

So is that part of the rules. It says Flips on huge letters just above the text I quoted. If you look for flips at the index of the rulebook, that's what you get.

Lucky Draw doesn't mention flipped cards or anything and a flip always results in a single number and up to one suit.

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Just now, Myyrä said:

So is that part of the rules. It says Flips on huge letters just above the text I quoted. If you look for flips at the index of the rulebook, that's what you get.

Lucky Draw doesn't mention flipped cards or anything and a flip always results in a single number and up to one suit.

But the thing we are discussing is the positive/negative twists (to use the 1st ed term) and there it talks about flipping the additional cards.

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1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

But the thing we are discussing is the positive/negative twists (to use the 1st ed term) and there it talks about flipping the additional cards.

I don't see anything in the modifiers rules that would contradict a flip having just one result regardless of the number of cards flipped. A single flip can have many cards but only one result, and if you are going to argue otherwise I would like to see some rules quotes.

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Just now, Math Mathonwy said:

As noted, I don't think that Lucky Draw is interested in which card you finally choose as the result but it is interested in the cards that you flip. And according to the rules text on the twists, you flip additional cards. I can quote that passage if you want but I don't think that that is your contention.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but Lucky Draw doesn't mention flipped cards or anything. It says "Whenever this model flips a :ram..." not a ram card or anything. I also think someone said a flip will always result in a single suit at most.

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Tricky one. I think them not using plural form in the first entry isn't exactly a resolution to the question. It's the same thing as the targeting clause consistently using the singular when some actions actually require multiple targets. I think everyone who usually wheighs in on rules questions talked me down until I admitted it probably allowed for several targets anyway. In the fate modifiers entry just one page later the term flips is used to say that you can flip multiple cards. 

I do think that only counting the final flip is reasonable for all instances of something that mentions flips since every action and ability mentioning flipped cards should work the same way. So either lawyers got one hell of a boost or you only count the "final flip" so to speak for this kind of ability.

Also note that when you consider a damage flip "... with the amount of damage dealt depending on the value of the card flipped." so if Lucky draw lets you heal from every card flipped a negative damage flip is actually significantly better than a straight flip since it will consider any card flipped and apply all those damage brackets. The damage rules never tell you to only count the final card chosen, you count the flipped card(s). I added the (s) since we know that rules that consider multiple cards or models use the singular from past experience of both damage flip wording and targeting rules.

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2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Lucky Draw works on cards flipped during Duels.

Nowhere does it say that. Lucky Draw doesn't say you can heal every time you flip a ram card.

There is only so many ways I can say that a flip only produces a single result, regardless of the number cards flipped, which is pretty much what the rulebook says word for word.

11 hours ago, solkan said:

The language for Flips and Duels is incredibly consistent: all of those cards are flipped and then one is chosen as the active card.  

See the Red Joker rules:

"When the Red Joker is flipped or played, the owning player must immediately announce which suit the Red Joker will be during the Action."

The Red Joker has a single suit value as soon as it is flipped, with allowances made for frailty of the human players.

 

 

There's also other kinds of flips not associated with duels, like damage and healing flips. How do you explain those?

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I know the term is used in what seems to be two different ways, that's why I said it was tricky.

The damage section doesn't say that you only use the active card, you deal damage according to what you flipped. If every card flipped is flipped in the sense you are arguing then negative damage flips would cause every bracket of damage you just flipped. I don't think either one of us believes it works that way which gives us precedent to assume that "flipped" may very well mean: ends up being the final card used in a flip. 

It is of course very possible the condition was meant to work in a different way to how flipped is used when referencing damage and the lawyer's attack but it isn't currently formulated in a different way which puts us in a tricky spot. This condition and the damage section should clearly differentiate between every card flipped and the "final flip" or something. I'd happily let you heal of every card flipped because I'm prepared to assume that was the intention but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say this is obvious and should obviously be played this way. Seems like a clarification would be in order.

@solkan You think it's more likely the entire section on causing damage from the base rules that has never been put into question (afaik) is poorly written than this single ability being poorly written? A lot of times when something being flipped is referenced in the base rules it seems to indicate you go by the "final flip" so to speak.

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31 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Your argument is (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the shorthand :ram isn't "ram card"?

Half of it, yes. If the ability said "whenever a ram card" is flipped that would point towards all the flipped cards counting, but flipping a ram card and choosing something else, doesn't mean you flipped a :ram, just like flipping a severe card and being forced to choose a weak card doesn't mean you flipped a severe.

31 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

It produces a single active card. You flip several cards and have several cards flipped. "Whenever flips" is consistent with the latter. All this is IMO extremely obvious from the quotes I gave.

 

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

But how did you get the three cards that you choose from? You flipped them. According to the book's nomenclature, at least.

From page 27:

"[modifiers] force a model to flip additional cards", "the models will flip one card plus one additional card for each...", "the maximum number of cards a model may flip is four", "once all cards are flipped, the model chooses one to use as its active card."

It consistently speaks of flipping the additional cards. "Whenever this model flips a :ram..." uses the same language. "Whenever this model chooses a :ram as an active card in a duel" would be consistent with your POV.

I assume you mean this quote. It seems to me like it says that you make a flip by flipping one or more cards to get a single random number and/or suit. It definitely doesn't say that you make more than one flip. Single flip, multiple cards.

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12 minutes ago, lame0 said:

BTW a flip can in fact have two suits (look at mah emmisary upgrade). 

Also I think just reading the example on page 17 of the small rule book say it all "the guild guard flips two cards one base, plus one additional card for the final :+fate (after cancellations)."

It goes further and says how to choose which is the active card depending on the modifier but the most important fact is that both are flipped and thus both would fall under:

Luchy Draw: "Whenever this model flips a :ram in a dual, it may immediately heal 1 damage." 

Technically speaking this effect must go off before you choose the card that ends up being the active one because the effect must go off immediately when a card is flipped. 

Since the rule book gives this example and clarifies "flips" on a modifier and says the order to resolve I think that's all there is to say.

So you agree that a negative damage flip will deal every card "flipped" as damage so it's actually better to go neg than straight on damage flips? Lawyers also paralyze you if any card flipped on a negative belongs to the severa category? That is going to devalue hard to wound quite significantly.

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39 minutes ago, lame0 said:

BTW a flip can in fact have two suits (look at mah emmisary upgrade). 

That's just splitting hairs, because the suit is clearly added after the flip.

39 minutes ago, lame0 said:

Also I think just reading the example on page 17 of the small rule book say it all "the guild guard flips two cards one base, plus one additional card for the final :+fate (after cancellations)."

It goes further and says how to choose which is the active card depending on the modifier but the most important fact is that both are "flips" and thus both would fall under:

Luchy Draw: "Whenever this model flips a :ram in a dual, it may immediately heal 1 damage." 

Technically speaking this effect must go off before you choose the card that ends up being the active one because the effect must go off immediately when a card "flips." 

Since the rule book gives this example and clarifies "flips" on a modifier and says the order to resolve I think that's all there is to say.

It says that the Guild Guard flips two cards. How is that evidence that there is more than one flip? Also, please use care when quoting to actually get the quotes correct.

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11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Of course not - you take the active card and use that one for damage the same as you take the active card and use that for a duel. You do flip the other cards but you don't set them active.

I'd agree with Solkan in that the Lawyer (and similar others) are written wrong.

Duels clearly tell you to choose one card which is the only one counted. Damage flips just say that you inflict damage based on the flipped card, it never tells you to only consider the final card chosen. At the very least the entire section on damage would need clarification if the term flip means any card flipped and not the final one chosen. The base problem is that flip is used to refer to two very different things which I think is bad. We all know how damage flips work and several other abilities use the same language as the damage section. What I don't see is why his particular ability isn't the poorly written one when everything else lines up?

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1 minute ago, Angelshard said:

Lawyers just seem to have a horribly written attack Honestly, it should have said "if moderate damage is dealt" like every sane card. Mr tannen has the same issue where he says played instead of cheated.

I have pointed it out before, they are not the only models with that wording.

1 minute ago, Angelshard said:

As for flips, if I understand @Ludvig and @Myyrä correctly your argument is that it doesn't matter how many cards you flip as only the one chosen to be the active card counts as flipped. So unless you choose the :ram card you won't heal and you can only ever heal 1 from any duel.

You understood almost correctly. You may have flipped up to 4 cards, but the flip will only result in one number and up to one suit.

1 minute ago, Angelshard said:

I have two problems with this.

1. under cheat fate (p.19 of the small rulebook) it says that you choose an active card from the flip. That seems to indicate that the flip and the active card are two different things.

No one is claiming they are the same thing. Choosing the active card is just part of the flip.

1 minute ago, Angelshard said:

2. Lynch has the (0) pay up that allows you to flip a card for each enemy with brilliance and take all :mask flipped into his hand. According to your interpretation that can only ever be one card.

Flip one card for each enemy model sounds to me like you are just going to make one flip for each enemy model nearby. I don't see the contradiction. Even if there was one, one action having a poor wording sounds more likely than three or more having a poor wording. No?

1 minute ago, Angelshard said:

As for the damage rules it's one line that is badly written as it's also written so that you apply damage before cheating, allowing you to do damage twice. Also it refers to the chart below instead of above as it should (at least in the small rulebook).

Saying something poorly written doesn't make it so. Could you actually point out how it contradicts other rules?

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2E Core, pg 26: 
"When a flip is required, the model turns over one or
more cards from the top of the Fate Deck to achieve a
random number and/or suit. Flips are used to resolve
simple situations, such as suffering damage or healing."

There is nothing in that block that indicates that only the card chosen during the flip is considered to have been flipped. It merely says that a flip is used to generate a value and a suit. It doesn't go into detail on the process of actually generating that number in the short section on "Flips".

The section on duels refers to flipping cards in a bunch of spots. It instructs you to chose one to become active and then to discard the others. I don't ever see the rules say that the active card becomes your flipped card.

If you look at the section on Jokers and Fate Modifers it seems to clearly indicate that all of the cards that are part of the flip are considered flipped.

2E Core, pg 27:
"Black Joker: Regardless of the modifier, if the Black Joker
is flipped the player must choose it, even if there are one
or more cards flipped because of a :+fate.
Red Joker: As long as the Black Joker is not also flipped,
the Red Joker may always be chosen during a flip, even
if there are one or more cards flipped because of a :-fate."

If cards were't considered flipped until they were chosen as the active card then this section of the rules doesn't make any sense. There are several other sections like this. 

The words "flip", "flipped", "flipping" are used all throughout the rules. "Flip" is used to refer to the act of randomization (Attack Flip, Damage Flip, etc.) as well as a general verb used in instructions. As far as I can see, every time that a card is referred to as having been flipped it is before a card has been chosen as active.

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21 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

What you are doing is redefining flipping a :ram to mean flipping a ram card and then proving that you actually flipped a ram card. What you should be doing instead is prove that flipping a :ram actually means flipping a ram card.

I'm not redefining anything. "chooses one of the flipped cards as the active card" - the cards were flipped. Even the cards that were not chosen as active were flipped. And nowhere is a distinction made between a :ram and a rams card because the book uses the symbol consistently after defining it. If we check what a card is, it has a suit and a value. Three cards were flipped, each of them has a suit and a value and those suits might or might not be :ram.

Your stance is in no way stronger than mine if you go by RAW. You define "flipped" as the active card of the flip, I define it as cards that have been flipped. Both interpretations are valid. A FAQ entry is needed.

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I think this topic being as long as it is really represents that an faq and clarification is needed. Also @Myyrä I do find it concerning that you totally disagree with most people here and you are not willing to at the very least concede it is not clear. If you want im sure many could take the stance of your totally wrong according to RAW since many places the term flips/flipped/flip are used with seemingly different meaning. Just replace the word flip with the game term definition and you start to see it break down...

I think that both Molly and the guild lawyer have two poorly written actions and due to the way flip is used throughout the book which needs errata or at the very least faq.

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On 10/2/2017 at 6:54 AM, Ludvig said:

What I am saying is we need m 2.5 or something. This is a mess. I agree on how the upgrade should play but if that wording means that some models are going to work very differntly. Basically I might start bringing lawyers and a printout of this discussion to a lot of finnish tournament games because they just became flippin' awesome. :D 

1. Which only strengthens the idea that lawyers are amazing.

2. I flip for one model and choose that card. Flip for another and choose that one. And so on... The ability doesn't say "make one flip that gets a :+fate for each model with brilliance nearby" it's several flips.

We need M2.5 or something for a lot more reasons than this particular discussion. After 5 books, an FAQ getting as thick as a bible and all of the years discussing issues that still have not been clarified since M2E came out, we are ready for M3E or something. M2E was a great update and I believe the next iteration will be the best yet.  

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For what it's worth, I'm pretty firmly in the camp of "+ flips generate additional rams for the effigy condition" - and this is because it was discussed pretty heavily before the FAQ was made and decided to be left alone purely on that merit. The Lucky Effigy is supposed to work this way, in my opinion, regardless of the letter of the law.

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1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Lucky Effigy can give this Condition:

"Lucky Draw: Whenever this model flips a :ram in a duel, it may immediately heal 1 damage."

If the model with a Condition has suffered four damage and then has :-fate:-fate for a duel and flips 12:ram, 11:ram, and 2:crow does the model heal two as it flipped two Rams cards even though it is forced to choose the two of crows?

The language for Flips and Duels is incredibly consistent: all of those cards are flipped and then one is chosen as the active card.  

Quote

Also, does the model heal when flipping a Red Joker?

See the Red Joker rules:

"When the Red Joker is flipped or played, the owning player must immediately announce which suit the Red Joker will be during the Action."

The Red Joker has a single suit value as soon as it is flipped, with allowances made for frailty of the human players.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

A counter point was presented in the form of The Guild Lawyer:

(1) OBJECTION!!! (Ca 6:tome / Rst: Wp / Rg: :melee1): Target suffers 2/2/2 damage. If
Moderate damage is flipped or cheated target gains Slow, or Paralyzed in the case
of Severe.

I don't think that anyone would argue that if you are doing damage at a :-fate and flip a severe and a weak, the target is Paralyzed.

That's an argument that Objection contains an error in wording.

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Just now, Myyrä said:

I don't see anything in the modifiers rules that would contradict a flip having just one result regardless of the number of cards flipped. A single flip can have many cards but only one result, and if you are going to argue otherwise I would like to see some rules quotes.

As noted, I don't think that Lucky Draw is interested in which card you finally choose as the result but it is interested in the cards that you flip. And according to the rules text on the twists, you flip additional cards. I can quote that passage if you want but I don't think that that is your contention.

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10 hours ago, Myyrä said:

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but Lucky Draw doesn't mention flipped cards or anything. It says "Whenever this model flips a :ram..." not a ram card or anything. I also think someone said a flip will always result in a single suit at most.

But how did you get the three cards that you choose from? You flipped them. According to the book's nomenclature, at least.

From page 27:

"[modifiers] force a model to flip additional cards", "the models will flip one card plus one additional card for each...", "the maximum number of cards a model may flip is four", "once all cards are flipped, the model chooses one to use as its active card."

It consistently speaks of flipping the additional cards. "Whenever this model flips a :ram..." uses the same language. "Whenever this model chooses a :ram as an active card in a duel" would be consistent with your POV.

10 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Also note that when you consider a damage flip "... with the amount of damage dealt depending on the value of the card flipped." so if Lucky draw lets you heal from every card flipped a negative damage flip is actually significantly better than a straight flip since it will consider any card flipped and apply all those damage brackets. The damage rules never tell you to only count the final card chosen, you count the flipped card(s). I added the (s) since we know that rules that consider multiple cards or models use the singular from past experience of both damage flip wording and targeting rules.

Lucky Draw works on cards flipped during Duels.

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