Kbonn Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 On 10/3/2017 at 10:47 PM, Khyodee said: I don't quire agree with that forum post's assessment. Basically the argument is the in book rules are trumped by a single upgrade and thus it doesn't work. First off, I would be more inclined to go off the rules and second the Asami rules simple states that both players score VP at the same time. That states nothing about schemes being scored independently, just that players score at the same time and your assuming that means all the points are scored at the same time (which the rules state otherwise). As far as I'm concerned it works until a FAQ or someone points out a solid example. You are not reading the rule book rules correctly. End of turn points are all scored at the same time. No upgrade is required for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khyodee Posted October 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 I'm basing my debate off of the end of game scoring and how any marker removal scoring happens. As per the rules: Step 4. Players calculate VP earned for one chosen Scheme and add them to the Crew's total VP. Step 5. Players remove any Scheme markers that they chose to use to Score VP with the Scheme in Step 4. Step 6. Players calculate VP earned from the remaining Scheme and add them to the Crew total VP. Why would turn by turn be any different? If it did then you also could score multiple schemes off the same markers which you clearly can not do to how you score schemes. I could be wrong sure, but if even if I am there is no direct rules that explain end of turn scoring specifically and so this end of game explanation makes it very confusing since its the only thing we have to base end of turn scoring off of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 36 minutes ago, Khyodee said: I'm basing my debate off of the end of game scoring and how any marker removal scoring happens. As per the rules: Step 4. Players calculate VP earned for one chosen Scheme and add them to the Crew's total VP. Step 5. Players remove any Scheme markers that they chose to use to Score VP with the Scheme in Step 4. Step 6. Players calculate VP earned from the remaining Scheme and add them to the Crew total VP. Why would turn by turn be any different? If it did then you also could score multiple schemes off the same markers which you clearly can not do to how you score schemes. I could be wrong sure, but if even if I am there is no direct rules that explain end of turn scoring specifically and so this end of game explanation makes it very confusing since its the only thing we have to base end of turn scoring off of. Actually, they specifically included language to make sure you couldn't score VP off of a scheme marker for two different schemes - it was added to several schemes to avoid just that problem. Again, between the upgrade card for Asami with clarification and the fact that there is no End of Turn sequence spelled out, it is pretty clear. If you are going to go by your interpretation then Asami could get up to 3 free summons a turn. Why else would they have included that clarification on the upgrade card if that was the case? They included it to make it abundantly clear that she only gets one summon max as all VP is scored simultaneously at the end of the Turn. It may not have been the best place to put that clarification, but I think that was the first ability that was worded that way. If you are using the sequence from the Winning the Encounter (and it specifically says you do those steps after the End of the game) for each end of turn, then why do you stop? The last part of that sequence is to check who has won and the game is over then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodares Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 53 minutes ago, Paddywhack said: Actually, they specifically included language to make sure you couldn't score VP off of a scheme marker for two different schemes - it was added to several schemes to avoid just that problem. Again, between the upgrade card for Asami with clarification and the fact that there is no End of Turn sequence spelled out, it is pretty clear. If you are going to go by your interpretation then Asami could get up to 3 free summons a turn. Why else would they have included that clarification on the upgrade card if that was the case? They included it to make it abundantly clear that she only gets one summon max as all VP is scored simultaneously at the end of the Turn. It may not have been the best place to put that clarification, but I think that was the first ability that was worded that way. If you are using the sequence from the Winning the Encounter (and it specifically says you do those steps after the End of the game) for each end of turn, then why do you stop? The last part of that sequence is to check who has won and the game is over then. 1 hour ago, Khyodee said: I'm basing my debate off of the end of game scoring and how any marker removal scoring happens. As per the rules: Step 4. Players calculate VP earned for one chosen Scheme and add them to the Crew's total VP. Step 5. Players remove any Scheme markers that they chose to use to Score VP with the Scheme in Step 4. Step 6. Players calculate VP earned from the remaining Scheme and add them to the Crew total VP. Why would turn by turn be any different? If it did then you also could score multiple schemes off the same markers which you clearly can not do to how you score schemes. I could be wrong sure, but if even if I am there is no direct rules that explain end of turn scoring specifically and so this end of game explanation makes it very confusing since its the only thing we have to base end of turn scoring off of. Devil's advocate here: we might have been misinterpreting Asami's upgrade card. The exact text is: "Note that VP earned at the end of a Turn are earned by both Crews simuntaneously." If we follow @Khyodee's steps pattern, it just means that each individual step is earned at thesame time and that Asami should get her 3 summons. Probably overthinking it, but nowhere does Asami's card say that ALL VP are earned simultaneously. It just said that for VP earned so you can't let your opponent calculate VP first and then base your summon off of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, whodares said: Devil's advocate here: we might have been misinterpreting Asami's upgrade card. The exact text is: "Note that VP earned at the end of a Turn are earned by both Crews simuntaneously." If we follow @Khyodee's steps pattern, it just means that each individual step is earned at thesame time and that Asami should get her 3 summons. Probably overthinking it, but nowhere does Asami's card say that ALL VP are earned simultaneously. It just said that for VP earned so you can't let your opponent calculate VP first and then base your summon off of that. Do you really think a 1SS upgrade should grant 3 free summons? Do you REALLY think that was the intention? This isn't the rules forum, but playing Devils Advocate is generally not a great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodares Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 35 minutes ago, Paddywhack said: Do you really think a 1SS upgrade should grant 3 free summons? Do you REALLY think that was the intention? This isn't the rules forum, but playing Devils Advocate is generally not a great idea. Grant 3 free summons when you are behind. Being behind is the keyword on it. It pretty much always gives you a Tengu, Akaname or Yokai (1-2 VP difference) and they go poof really fast. Yokai might not even make it to the end of the turn where as the others can last for another 2 turns due to them being summoned after the Upkeep step. Yokai can get +3 Flicker thanks to his ability, but even then ... These summons come in slow so they have to be within 4" of Asami to do the charge to actually be useful the turn after they are summoned. Asami already has a hard time getting activation control due to the Flicker condition, so I could see it actually working like that. Also don't forget that the opposing crew has to score VP for you to get your summon. If they do something like Frame For Murder that scores all points instantly, you can kiss 1 summon per turn goodbye. Whether or not it was the intention does not matter if the rules allow it. Thesame thing can be said for Huggy with the card discard upgrade. Probably not intended and very toxic to actually enforce, yet it's never been errata'd and the current rules allow it to work. This is why I'd like to get an actual reply to this question ASAP as it's affecting multiple masters already and could mean a major difference in power for those masters. Perhaps @Aaron could shed some light on how this interaction is supposed to work? Just to be clear, I'm in the camp that's it's not intended to work like this. The current rulings and ambiguous wording however make it difficult to contest as both sides have supporting arguments and it comes down to a subjective interpretation of certain mechanics. Pretty much a nightmare for any judge/henchman to rule on as you can completely destroy a game play with either call. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 I still don't see what else that phrase on Asami's card could possibly mean then? They don't often add extraneous clarifications. And you could get three summons and only be 1VP behind - or what if Asami takes 2 end of game schemes? And I think you are highly underestimating Asami's summons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodares Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, Paddywhack said: I still don't see what else that phrase on Asami's card could possibly mean then? They don't often add extraneous clarifications. And you could get three summons and only be 1VP behind - or what if Asami takes 2 end of game schemes? And I think you are highly underestimating Asami's summons If you are 1 VP behind, your opponent has to score an equal amount of schemes for you to maximize your summons. If you score on both your schemes and the strategy while your opponent only scores on 1 scheme and the strategy, you'll only get 1 summon due to the timing rulings as explained by Khyodee. End of Game schemes can be stopped a whole lot easier than continuous schemes. GG17 has Covert Breakthrough, Search The Ruins and Hidden Trap as End of Game schemes. These can all be stopped rather easily and your opponent can also pick these schemes as well. The only truly useful Asami summon is Yokai and very situational an Obsidian Oni, Tengu or Jorogumo. Jorogumo can be good if you summon him in on Turn 4 with 2 Flicker so he can be annoying on Turn 5. If you don't have that scrap lying around or took the Borrowed Time upgrade, Jorogumo is effectively a waste of a 13. Obsidian Oni can get your scrap engine started, but he also needs that Flicker +1 to get going or he isn't really worth it over the offensive mlght of a Yokai. We'll have to see what the Book 5 upgrades do to this as the Emissary can now allow a Jorogumo to also get Flicker +1 while still remaining modestly survivable. Then again summoning a Jorogumo requires a 13, which is most certainly not a cheap prince. But enough about Asami here, it's the Yan Lo thread after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Are end of game schemes really that hard if you can outnumber your opponent with free out of activation summons? Remember, these are extra summons you get to do and then still have your turn to summon more. So if I let you get a head by 1VP I can get 3 'free' summons and then my turn to summon another 3 models potentially. So if what you are arguing for is correct: end of turn your opponent scores for Strat for one VP ahead of you (1 summon); next step first scheme and both score a VP (1 summon as your opponent is still 1 VP ahead); next step both score for second Strat (1 summon). Score is 2-3 and you get 3 summons into the game. Again - that page on Winning the Game specifically says to follow that order after the flip to end the game. End of turn says nothing about how to score, except the Asami upgrade that clarifies it is simultaneously. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Dyson Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 In cases like this where a FAQ would be really helpful, I personally find its best to go with the interpretation of the rule/interaction that benefits your opponent most (I.e. the interpretation that @Paddywhack is describing). It avoids sore feelings down the road. Until we get an FAQ, if both you and your opponent agree with an interpretation, then have at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 On 20/10/2017 at 5:22 PM, Khyodee said: I'm basing my debate off of the end of game scoring and how any marker removal scoring happens. As per the rules: Step 4. Players calculate VP earned for one chosen Scheme and add them to the Crew's total VP. Step 5. Players remove any Scheme markers that they chose to use to Score VP with the Scheme in Step 4. Step 6. Players calculate VP earned from the remaining Scheme and add them to the Crew total VP. Why would turn by turn be any different? If it did then you also could score multiple schemes off the same markers which you clearly can not do to how you score schemes. I could be wrong sure, but if even if I am there is no direct rules that explain end of turn scoring specifically and so this end of game explanation makes it very confusing since its the only thing we have to base end of turn scoring off of. Why would turn by turn be the same? There would be no step 5 because going through the text of the scheme means that you have already removed scheme markers, and not just the scheme markers that you used to score, but all that meet the schemes criteria. The rules expressly state a single scheme marker may only count towards 1 scheme during the encounter. And all the schemes that use markers during the end of turn tell you which markers they need to remove when you score. The rules tell us which scheme markers you use during the end of the game to remove, because the schemes don't. And that's why you need the timing spelt out for end of game schemes. That alone is a good reason why "end of game" and "end of turn" scoring are different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Dyson Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 This has now been resolved as of the November FAQ: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.