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Da Git

Errata Hopes and Dreams!

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46 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

The aura abd the whispers attack are absolutely not worth 9 stones. Bad argument as well comparing to an executioner who was until it got its upgrade and Nellie synergy regularly lambasted as one of the worst models in Guild. And I would hire an executioner over a Hanged anyday of the week.

So what would be an appropriate cost? 6ss? 7? There are models that support hanged just like the executioner get support from Nellie or McCabe.

How about the cerberus comparison? The hanged are usually more survivable and cerberii are considered good I think?

 

They could just as easily be compared to stitched together for 6ss. As long as they have a rarity and aren't summonable it shouldn't break the game.

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I'd argue that the Cerberus is on another level for two reasons: Leap and it's an Enforcer so it can take IE.  A Cerberus popping IE has Leap 7"+50mm base, then can either charge for 3 attacks+trigger at threat range 15"(7+7+1)+50mm or Leap then walk and charge for 2 attacks+trigger at threat range 20"(7+5+7+1)+50mm.  That's huge.  Even without IE, it's still got a decent threat range, good Ml and Dg with built in + above 4wds...

That said, whilst a Cerberus is probably much more consistent, the Hanged doesn't have to be as it's summoned.  I'd also say the Hanged is much more swingy, it can single handedly cripple a game plan unless condition removal is involved.

A super simple errata to the Hanged that would actually make me satisfied would be if Glimpse the Inevitable were non-leader.  SS drop to ~7ss

Otherwise, Enforcer them up!  Up the range of Unrelenting Terror to maybe 6" and remove the charge clause.  Make Condemned Whisper a (0) or just drop it completely in favour of a different (0), he needs a good zero as he'd really like MLH to boost survivability for the key turn.  Give Glimpse the Inevitable a discard clause to lose the Condition or non-leader. Lastly either boost his Df to 5 or Wds to 8-9 or drop SS cost to ~8ss

Either of those would be less game-breaking.

TLDR: Make Glimpse the Inevitable non-master would be amazing!

Edited by Da Git
Edit to add SS reduction
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Why not make it just "till the start of this models next activation or until it is removed from play"? Seems simpler to me, most tough conditions like that one work that way.

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@Da Git Sounds like some very interesting suggestions. That action and trigger is really the big problem because it does win games so it's hard to appropriately cost. Changing that up would allow a lot more flexibility for the model in a bunch of ways. It seems like a common problem for models with unique abilities.

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54 minutes ago, Da Git said:

I'd argue that the Cerberus is on another level for two reasons: Leap and it's an Enforcer so it can take IE.  A Cerberus popping IE has Leap 7"+50mm base, then can either charge for 3 attacks+trigger at threat range 15"(7+7+1)+50mm or Leap then walk and charge for 2 attacks+trigger at threat range 20"(7+5+7+1)+50mm.  That's huge.  Even without IE, it's still got a decent threat range, good Ml and Dg with built in + above 4wds...

I'd just like to point out that the leap needs a 5:mask, which can decide to just not show up when you need it. The Cerberus is a great model but Arcanist leaps in general are pretty unreliable.

On the topic of Hanged, I don't care how bad they may be they terrify me. I really hate the idea of having my master lose half their wounds to a single attack. I know that is the worst case scenario but I cannot allow hanged to live because of it.

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Glimpse as non leader would make them even more terrible than they already are. Although it does pretty much support an opinion I've had for an long time. Hanged were pretty close to what they were last edition, when they were also pretty much ignore but since masters could spend SS to add another flip they pretty much never effected a master so not only were they ignored, no one complained about them. As soon as they could everyone hated them and they got overcosted as a result.

Frankly for their cost a ranged min dmg 3 attack would get better and more consistent than the attack everyone hates. It's only really great if you hit something with high wounds the first time before they start taking dmg. Once a model has lower wounds it becomes less and less effective and they run into the same problem they've always had in that they can't finish a model. It takes them 3 AP, assuming they hit each time, to kill a 4 wound model, and 4 AP to kill a 12 wound model, which is pretty much exactly the same as a min dmg 3 model.

You are counting on the big initial swing and the no healing they've what makes it worth their cost, and it just isn't. I'm not arguing that the attack is fair if it's costed lower, I'm arguing I don't think it's possible with the current rules architecture to balance it fairly at all. No one is ever going to want it costed lower when used against them, but no one will actually want to hire them if you make it costed for what an opponent thinks is fair. Which is why I'd rather Hanged get a total rewrite to make them the models you bring to play terror games, and using them to shut down all the immunities that can mess with bringing an effective terror list.

Perhaps change whisper to a flat dmg 3 attack that puts a condition in the affected model that can't be ignored that just makes it so the model affected can't ignore terror or paralyzed.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

@Da Git Sounds like some very interesting suggestions. That action and trigger is really the big problem because it does win games so it's hard to appropriately cost. Changing that up would allow a lot more flexibility for the model in a bunch of ways. It seems like a common problem for models with unique abilities.

Thanks, that's basically what I see as being the crux of the problem, it's very swingy being able to summon it, you can bring it in where and when you need it so that swinginess is only a plus to cause a devastating affect.  If it's not useful, you don't summon it!  Because of this, it's also not hired.

1 hour ago, Nukemouse said:

Why not make it just "till the start of this models next activation or until it is removed from play"? Seems simpler to me, most tough conditions like that one work that way.

This would also be acceptable.  It's biggest impact is of course Masters, but Paralyse and Yin's condition also effect them, so I guess there's a fair precedent.

* * *

Other models I could see using a buff would be:

  • Mortimer - Please make him relevant!
  • Dead Rider - 3/4 Riders sorely need a buff!
  • Heyridden - Needs more wounds
  • Crooked Men - Got left behind the power curve
  • As a Kirai player, I basically never use Gaki or Onryo (unless I manage to summon one with Datsue-ba or Kirai's trigger, both of which are rare), which saddens me as they're such amazing models...

@Fetid Strumpet, for me, it's not so much the half damage that's terrifying, it's the Glimpse condition.  I also very much agree with you in that ideally, it needs a complete re-write; but I don't think we're going to see that, so I was mostly just trying to provide options that fit within it's current framework.  I'll also edit my above post to show that it should also drop in cost. 

Also I have to seriously disagree with you that it's a terrible model. A terrible hire yes, but a fricken amazing summon that breaks games. 

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17 minutes ago, Da Git said:

 

  • Crooked Men - Got left behind the power curve
  • As a Kirai player, I basically never use Gaki or Onryo (unless I manage to summon one with Datsue-ba or Kirai's trigger, both of which are rare), which saddens me as they're such amazing models...

If Crooked men just had Df5 and/or W5 I would be more inclined to take them. Unless you know you're facing a gun line, they just die so darn fast.

I love the Onryo and Gaki (plastic) models as well, but they are difficult to justify buying. They tried to help Onryo, but you have to use an Upgrade slot and make sure they are within 12:aura of the model holding it to get +1W and Ch. The Gaki at least have Df6, but nothing else to help them stay alive really - though they are cheap. Might try taking a few once I get the plastics assembled. 

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On ‎27‎.‎9‎.‎2017 at 3:50 PM, Da Git said:

I'd argue that the Cerberus is on another level for two reasons: Leap and it's an Enforcer so it can take IE.  A Cerberus popping IE has Leap 7"+50mm base, then can either charge for 3 attacks+trigger at threat range 15"(7+7+1)+50mm or Leap then walk and charge for 2 attacks+trigger at threat range 20"(7+5+7+1)+50mm.  That's huge.  Even without IE, it's still got a decent threat range, good Ml and Dg with built in + above 4wds...

Not quite sure whether you meant that by factoring in the base size but note that Leap isn't Place (it's a Move that ignores terrain and models) so the base size doesn't really matter - other than as a possible hindrance, basically, in that you might not be able to cover the whole distance due to terrain/models being in the way of where you wanted to land.

I agree with Paddywhack on Crooked Men - they are really close to being fine. That Paralyze Trigger is crazy nasty and often forces the opponent to cheat high in fear of you having a suitable Crows in hand when a Crooked Man attacks something juicy.

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2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I agree with Paddywhack on Crooked Men - they are really close to being fine. That Paralyze Trigger is crazy nasty and often forces the opponent to cheat high in fear of you having a suitable Crows in hand when a Crooked Man attacks something juicy.

I understand not wanting to up their Df, but if their Walk was at least a 5 I might be more inclined to take some. I hate needing to use AP from other models to make my models move. Maybe change Shafted so that is possibly relevant.

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