Colette Audience Particiapation Upgrade

[Fictor]

Hi dudes!

Reading the new upgrade i have a doubt:

Audience Particiapation (2ss):

Friendly Minion Showgirls Within 8 of this model gain the following Abilithy:

Add An Extra Flourish: When this model Activates it gains the Focused +1 Condition

...

So... it ONLY affect to Minion + Showgirls like Performer or counts for December Acolyte and Cassandra?

Kind regards.

[MuMantai]

Only Models that are Minions and Showgirls, sadly

[Fictor]

So, only Oiran and Performer, piece of shit upgrade xD

[Mxbedlam]

Orian, Performer, Coryphee and Ice Dancer. It isn't spectacular, but it has some play if you are digging for the right suit on Siren's Call. Also the (0) is hard as hell to set up BUT it can make a difference. its a feast or famine upgrade. We will see stories of it turning a game for people but most of the time it will do nothing spectacular. I will leave it at home 8/10 games I play with Colette. In related news, playing 10 games with Colette is gonna take a while as she's taken a big hit in the past year. 

[dancater]

Basically a highly situational upgrade which might, might... have powerful play if the stars align and the moon is in eclipse with the planet of Mercury, providing its the 3rd Thursday of June.

So yeah, not much play.  I've already pointed out the poor Colette has copped a bit of a hammering over the past year, the book 5 upgrades were generally great for Arcanists, so Colette's weak showing is very obvious.

[Fictor]

I'm thinking in the other action of that upgrade.

The pseudo Obey consuming one Ap of the enemy, combine that with the auto Slow on hit of the other new upgrade and you can literally stop one enemy miniature, and if you can do in a beater it will be great =P

A little control for Colette xD

[WWHSD]

2 minutes ago, Fictor said:

I'm thinking in the other action of that upgrade.

The pseudo Obey consuming one Ap of the enemy, combine that with the auto Slow on hit of the other new upgrade and you can literally stop one enemy miniature, and if you can do in a beater it will be great =P

A little control for Colette xD

How often do you run into Minion beaters?

[Fictor]

Ok, I didn't read that can be target only enemy MINIONS, that upgrade is pure rubbish xD

[WWHSD]

9 minutes ago, Fictor said:

Ok, I didn't read that can be target only enemy MINIONS, that upgrade is pure rubbish xD

If they pulled the minion bit from both of the abilities on the card it would be a great upgrade. 

[Fictor]

Yes, only of one of them =P

[Mxbedlam]

2 hours ago, WWHSD said:

If they pulled the minion bit from both of the abilities on the card it would be a great upgrade. 

if they pulled it from the (0) they would HAVE to add in a TN. Unresisted first AP from enforcer, henchman models is way too good. 

[WWHSD]

3 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

if they pulled it from the (0) they would HAVE to add in a TN. Unresisted first AP from enforcer, henchman models is way too good. 

It's got a TN but it might need to be higher since it's unresisted. It's a Ca 7 with a TN of 14. 

 

[Mxbedlam]

wrong word choices. I meant a Resist.

[Flint]

6 hours ago, Fictor said:

Friendly Minion Showgirls

Looks like another addition to Prompt in next Colette errata.

[Jordon]

Coryphee are honestly the only models where this makes any noticeable difference since they are the only actual combat model that can be affected. 

It's one of those upgrades that just seems restricted to the point of irrelevancy. Minion + Showgirl is just 4 models and 3/4 of them are often hired for other reasons outside of combat.

• Ice dancer's strength is her speed and the ability to drop markers as a (0). Keeping them within range of Colette counteracts their main strength. If you want to use them as a beater than pay 1 more SS to get a Coryphee
• Performer's are great models and focus is not the worst thing on them but again your hiring them for their ability to destroy markers, disrupt enemy models and interact while engaged. That is their strength and why most people hire them. Focus doesn't really change them into beaters and is not really worth a master upgrade slot trying to make them so.
• Orian are.... just don't do it. Ten Thunders already has an upgrade that gives focus AND fast and yet you still don't see them. They are not good at combat, not good as disruption and average at running schemes thanks to disguised. Focus has barely any impact and you'll be better off taking a performer/coryphee depending on what your looking for.
• Lastly it's the coryphee. Here is the one model where this upgrade actually makes an impact. These gals can hit quite hard with focus and is the reason your taking them. They also are usually within range of Colette thanks to being good prompt targets. Now you can only get 2 so it's still not a great investment for such a small section of your crew but I do think this is where this upgrade works. Just don't form the duet or you'll loose the benefit. 

The (0) can make an impact if it just so happens to work out but it's really not worth actively trying to setup unless your facing a witchling thrall or dawn serpant. Typically most 4-5ss models are off scoring VP and not worth having your master chase around. Even if they are in range, 9 times out of 10 your better off using your sabre to simply attack it rather than mess with it. Lastly it's just very expensive with it needing specific timing, spacing, a scheme maker and suit. It's not even certain whether you'll even encounter a minion (or one worth using this on) so this ability is a complete gamble and an unfavorable one at that.

All in all your likely going to get more value from seize the day or arcane reservoir so I don't see this upgrade doing anything special for Colette.

[edopersichetti]

8 hours ago, Fictor said:

So, only Oiran and Performer, piece of shit upgrade xD

It'd be meh even at 1SS. For 2SS? Lol.

[edopersichetti]

12 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Coryphee are honestly the only models where this makes any noticeable difference since they are the only actual combat model that can be affected. 

It's one of those upgrades that just seems restricted to the point of irrelevancy. Minion + Showgirl is just 4 models and 3/4 of them are often hired for other reasons outside of combat.

• Ice dancer's strength is her speed and the ability to drop markers as a (0). Keeping them within range of Colette counteracts their main strength. If you want to use them as a beater than pay 1 more SS to get a Coryphee
• Performer's are great models and focus is not the worst thing on them but again your hiring them for their ability to destroy markers, disrupt enemy models and interact while engaged. That is their strength and why most people hire them. Focus doesn't really change them into beaters and is not really worth a master upgrade slot trying to make them so.
• Orian are.... just don't do it. Ten Thunders already has an upgrade that gives focus AND fast and yet you still don't see them. They are not good at combat, not good as disruption and average at running schemes thanks to disguised. Focus has barely any impact and you'll be better off taking a performer/coryphee depending on what your looking for.
• Lastly it's the coryphee. Here is the one model where this upgrade actually makes an impact. These gals can hit quite hard with focus and is the reason your taking them. They also are usually within range of Colette thanks to being good prompt targets. Now you can only get 2 so it's still not a great investment for such a small section of your crew but I do think this is where this upgrade works. Just don't form the duet or you'll loose the benefit. 

The (0) can make an impact if it just so happens to work out but it's really not worth actively trying to setup unless your facing a witchling thrall or dawn serpant. Typically most 4-5ss models are off scoring VP and not worth having your master chase around. Even if they are in range, 9 times out of 10 your better off using your sabre to simply attack it rather than mess with it. Lastly it's just very expensive with it needing specific timing, spacing, a scheme maker and suit. It's not even certain whether you'll even encounter a minion (or one worth using this on) so this ability is a complete gamble and an unfavorable one at that.

All in all your likely going to get more value from seize the day or arcane reservoir so I don't see this upgrade doing anything special for Colette.

Thanks, that's a great analysis. This upgrade will hardly see the table, unless something changes. The other one is only marginally better, but still far from "good". You'd think poor Colette would deserve a better treatment after the big hit she got in the Errata...she's quickly gone from Arcanist Tier 1 to the very bottom...

[Jordon]

I feel like the biggest let down for me is that is just doesn't feel like Colette. I don't particularly like to use Colette's "All Together Now"  ability very often. Not because it's terrible, but it's usually more work than simply prompting two priority targets. However despite it's function, I feel like its incredibly thematic and something very unique to Colette. I can buy into the whole "showgirl" idea behind it. 

This upgrade feels very generic and almost tacked on just because she needed a new upgrade. It doesn't change her playstyle or enhance other aspects of what she does. More importantly it doesn't give me any competition for prompt. It's bland, it doesn't make sense, and doesn't offer anything new. It's just a let down on all fronts

[edopersichetti]

13 minutes ago, Jordon said:

I feel like the biggest let down for me is that is just doesn't feel like Colette. I don't particularly like to use Colette's "All Together Now"  ability very often. Not because it's terrible, but it's usually more work than simply prompting two priority targets. However despite it's function, I feel like its incredibly thematic and something very unique to Colette. I can buy into the whole "showgirl" idea behind it. 

This upgrade feels very generic and almost tacked on just because she needed a new upgrade. It doesn't change her playstyle or enhance other aspects of what she does. More importantly it doesn't give me any competition for prompt. It's bland, it doesn't make sense, and doesn't offer anything new. It's just a let down on all fronts

True - I noticed exactly this 2 days ago in my last game (see battle report in GG18). In a couple of situations I was tempted to use All together now, but I always ended up prompting twice.

Yeah, it definitely looks like they promised 2 new upgrades per master and while for some masters they had some really good ideas for new plastyles and options, for some they were a bit short of inspiration and put out some "fillers". Not all masters were really treated equally...

[Jinn]

It might have been interesting if the (0) action only required LoS, instead of LoS and range 8. 

As it is if your opponent even gets an inkling that you are setting up a good minion to hit with this they can just activate the minion, making it so you can't target it at all.

I've gotta say when you compare both of Colette's new upgrades to Collodi's base attack, it just hurts.

[Jordon]

27 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

True - I noticed exactly this 2 days ago in my last game (see battle report in GG18). In a couple of situations I was tempted to use All together now, but I always ended up prompting twice.

Yeah, it definitely looks like they promised 2 new upgrades per master and while for some masters they had some really good ideas for new plastyles and options, for some they were a bit short of inspiration and put out some "fillers". Not all masters were really treated equally...

Overall I think they did a great job with the other upgrades. I have no complaints about any other master in Arcanists. Each master got something good or at the very least, something interesting. I feel like the mark of a successful upgrade has to hit one of these three criteria. 

• Fun/Interesting: It's probably not the most competitive thing but it's still useful. Usually you'll see these on the stronger masters giving them a new way to play without changing the core mechanics of a model. I like to think Venomancy for Marcus. It's probably not the best way to play him but it finally makes poison legit in our faction and looks like an absolute blast to play. It's a new lease on life for models such as poison gamin and the scorpius.
• Expanding on an existing style: So this would take an aspect of a master and make it more of the primary focus. Whether it's making a master better at what they do or just changing up how a master can play. Mei Feng comes to mind as her new upgrade doubles down on combo's giving her more ways to chain between different actions. It's really unique as well as being quite good. Now you actually have a reason to use an attack other than her tiger claws.
• Giving something totally new: So this is just a compete shift in how a master plays. Turning a beater into a support model or vice versa. Sandeep springs to mind with his new limited upgrade which shifts him from more of a generalist to more of a damage play style with his ability to bring out Banasuva more consistently. 

Now Colette's other upgrade at least attempts to change her from support to beater which is why I think it's the better of the two. However I don't think it does quite enough to entice someone to actually play her that way over any of our other combat oriented masters. It requires a constant stream of resources of which she cannot produce on her own and the result can be great, but more often mediocre. 

Unfortunately this upgrade ticks none of those boxes for me. It gives nothing new, nothing fun and nothing to enhance any aspect of her existing play style.  

[edopersichetti]

1 hour ago, Jordon said:

Overall I think they did a great job with the other upgrades. I have no complaints about any other master in Arcanists. Each master got something good or at the very least, something interesting. I feel like the mark of a successful upgrade has to hit one of these three criteria. 

• Fun/Interesting: It's probably not the most competitive thing but it's still useful. Usually you'll see these on the stronger masters giving them a new way to play without changing the core mechanics of a model. I like to think Venomancy for Marcus. It's probably not the best way to play him but it finally makes poison legit in our faction and looks like an absolute blast to play. It's a new lease on life for models such as poison gamin and the scorpius.
• Expanding on an existing style: So this would take an aspect of a master and make it more of the primary focus. Whether it's making a master better at what they do or just changing up how a master can play. Mei Feng comes to mind as her new upgrade doubles down on combo's giving her more ways to chain between different actions. It's really unique as well as being quite good. Now you actually have a reason to use an attack other than her tiger claws.
• Giving something totally new: So this is just a compete shift in how a master plays. Turning a beater into a support model or vice versa. Sandeep springs to mind with his new limited upgrade which shifts him from more of a generalist to more of a damage play style with his ability to bring out Banasuva more consistently. 

Now Colette's other upgrade at least attempts to change her from support to beater which is why I think it's the better of the two. However I don't think it does quite enough to entice someone to actually play her that way over any of our other combat oriented masters. It requires a constant stream of resources of which she cannot produce on her own and the result can be great, but more often mediocre. 

Unfortunately this upgrade ticks none of those boxes for me. It gives nothing new, nothing fun and nothing to enhance any aspect of her existing play style.  

Another great analysis. Man, you're a machine

Where do you place Rasputina's upgrades in this analysis? Those are the other ones I'm kind of iffy about. Sure, I can see that melee Raspy would be a HUGE change of playstyle for her (3rd category), but the upgrade doesn't actually seem to do enough to scale well (similar problem to the Colette attack upgrade). The summoning one is cool but very resource-intensive: the golem requires an 11+ and three , one built-in, plus one in the card AND a stone...and a Scrap marker. It seems almost as unlikely to happen as the Colette 0 from the upgrade we've been talking about.

As for Colette, I agree that my biggest gripe is that even the better of the 2 upgrades is not enticing enough to play her that way. In particular using a steady stream of scheme markers just to attack with the Sabre seems counter-intuitive.

At a broader radius, your analysis applies very well apart from a few exceptions. In Gremlins for example the strongest masters got some more fun/interesting stuff (Som'er summoning skeeters?) while the most struggling ones where helped along. However, looking at Leveticus upgrades, this is a case where a strong master got some very strong upgrades...so this seems to be a bit of an exception.

[Jordon]

6 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Another great analysis. Man, you're a machine

Where do you place Rasputina's upgrades in this analysis? Those are the other ones I'm kind of iffy about. Sure, I can see that melee Raspy would be a HUGE change of playstyle for her (3rd category), but the upgrade doesn't actually seem to do enough to scale well (similar problem to the Colette attack upgrade). The summoning one is cool but very resource-intensive: the golem requires an 11+ and three , one built-in, plus one in the card AND a stone...and a Scrap marker. It seems almost as unlikely to happen as the Colette 0 from the upgrade we've been talking about.

As for Colette, I agree that my biggest gripe is that even the better of the 2 upgrades is not enticing enough to play her that way. In particular using a steady stream of scheme markers just to attack with the Sabre seems counter-intuitive.

At a broader radius, your analysis applies very well apart from a few exceptions. In Gremlins for example the strongest masters got some more fun/interesting stuff (Som'er summoning skeeters?) while the most struggling ones where helped along. However, looking at Leveticus upgrades, this is a case where a strong master got some very strong upgrades...so this seems to be a bit of an exception.

I think your pretty close with comparing Raspy's upgrades to Colettes however I feel like the big difference is that Raspy's doesn't distract from her main purpose and offers some diversity while also addressing some of his biggest weaknesses.

Raspy Achilles heal was getting engaged and while I still think that it's still her biggest weakness, I no longer feel entirely helpless. Before her melee upgrade she basically relied on others to get her out as disengaging with Df4 was all but impossible. Now at least if some fast chaff model is tossed at her, she can actually deal with it. It also helps that she essentially gets a free swing with it too which means she might not even necessarily need to burn any AP at all.

Her summon is in a similar boat. It gives her some activation control which is something she was lacking but it's more of a secondary thing. Summoning is probably the most powerful mechanic in this game and even just a few summons over the course of a game can have a big impact. It doesn't make her a summoner but it gives her some flexibility when blasting things just isn't enough.

[dancater]

2 hours ago, Jordon said:

Overall I think they did a great job with the other upgrades. I have no complaints about any other master in Arcanists. Each master got something good or at the very least, something interesting. I feel like the mark of a successful upgrade has to hit one of these three criteria. 

• Fun/Interesting: It's probably not the most competitive thing but it's still useful. Usually you'll see these on the stronger masters giving them a new way to play without changing the core mechanics of a model. I like to think Venomancy for Marcus. It's probably not the best way to play him but it finally makes poison legit in our faction and looks like an absolute blast to play. It's a new lease on life for models such as poison gamin and the scorpius.
• Expanding on an existing style: So this would take an aspect of a master and make it more of the primary focus. Whether it's making a master better at what they do or just changing up how a master can play. Mei Feng comes to mind as her new upgrade doubles down on combo's giving her more ways to chain between different actions. It's really unique as well as being quite good. Now you actually have a reason to use an attack other than her tiger claws.
• Giving something totally new: So this is just a compete shift in how a master plays. Turning a beater into a support model or vice versa. Sandeep springs to mind with his new limited upgrade which shifts him from more of a generalist to more of a damage play style with his ability to bring out Banasuva more consistently. 

Now Colette's other upgrade at least attempts to change her from support to beater which is why I think it's the better of the two. However I don't think it does quite enough to entice someone to actually play her that way over any of our other combat oriented masters. It requires a constant stream of resources of which she cannot produce on her own and the result can be great, but more often mediocre. 

Unfortunately this upgrade ticks none of those boxes for me. It gives nothing new, nothing fun and nothing to enhance any aspect of her existing play style.  

I want to add one more criteria

• Thematic to both the 'feel' of the master and the 'theme content' models of there crew.  So that the upgrade feels like something the master would do and boosts the value, and thus motivation to take, of their theme crew models.  Book 5 Arcanist generally did a credible job of trying to achieve this.  This Colette upgrade is an example of where that singularly failed for these actual reasons.  It does seem kinda bolted on, tacked in as a we need two upgrades, Colette controls so how about this coupled with a but it needs to be Showgirl so we'll niche one half into game functional obscurity (Showgirl minions only) and she is a stage manager not an obey master so lets confine the second part to only minions, again marginalizing its playablity to near ineffectiveness.  So they seemed to have reached for an upgrade and then tacked on 'thematic' constraints and basically created an over costed lemon which when compared to the 'Arcanist standard' 2SS master upgrade of Arcane Reservoir is laughable, why would you ever take this over that or nothing.  

I newly christen this upgrade as "Bring on the Clowns" that stays in theme and also represents this upgrades in-game value to Colette.

  

[Jinn]

Speaking of these four criteria for new upgrades reminds me of what bothered me most about the Prompt nerf, which is that it didn't just change it to simply follow the same restriction as every Obey in the game by making it allow one attack (per model) per turn. The best (and most thematic) part of Prompt was being able to run rings around your opponent to complete schemes, not prompting Langston three times to kill something.

What I wish Colette was able to do is be able to scheme effectively without killing, and these new upgrades are the polar opposite of that.